Silverless map ?

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
Hi everyone,

I just finished a game, and I was quite surprised to discover mid-game that there wasn't a single Silver resource on the map. Also, there was only one Deer and one Crab...

The map was a Pangea with all the default settings, if that matters. Events (and huts) turned off, so there's no way a Silver resource could have been destroyed by a random event.

Is this some kind of rare occurence or was I just not paying enough attention before ?
 

elmurcis

Emperor
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
1,177
Location
Latvia
How much tundra/ice (more specific - hills) was there on map? In case Pangea lacks "cold area" (also explains just one Deer and Crab) there simply isn't where to "seed" Silver (since it goes into cold regions of map generator.
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
There wasn't much tundra indeed : One big spot with 5 Fur + 1 Deer, and all the other spots were relatively tiny ones (5-6 squares at most). Since those other spots already had some resource (Oil, Iron, for instance), that's probably the reason why.

Thanks for the answer.
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
It can spawn from mining hills?
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
@Gumbolt : it should, at least if the hill is on a tundra square.

I've seen gold popping that way a few games ago, so why not silver ? However, this seems to be quite rare.

Btw, does someone know if you have to effectively use a mine tile in order for it to have a chance to spawn a special resource ?
 

elmurcis

Emperor
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
1,177
Location
Latvia
Yup, you have to work mine for chance to resource pop up. And there is no restriction about hill type or location in this case (grassland/plain/desert/tundra/ice) - as long as it is worked, there is (1/10000? I think, correct if wrong) chance for each of Silver, Gold, Gems (also Copper and Iron from early game resources) known to pop up (1/10000th for Gem, 1/10000th for Silver etc.).
 

Lennier

Emperor
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Orange County, NY
You can also pop uranium—and I think aluminum from mines, once you have the tech to see them. (Can’t pop iron from a mine until you discover iron working.)
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
thanks both for the clarifications.

If 1/10000 is correct, then that would be approx 1/2000 chance of something per mine and per turn... isn't that a bit optimistic ?

I mean, if working 6-7 mines during a 300 turns game, you should see a resource pop, on average, about once per game.
 

sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
3,540
Location
Finland
Both working 6-7 mines each turn and the game lasting 300T are quite "pessimistic" though. ;)
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
@sampsa Sure, but even assuming you only work 2 mines and you game lasts 200 turns, do you see a resource pop once every 5 games ?
 

sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
3,540
Location
Finland
Very hard to say. I don't really work mines, but still have managed to pop some resources. AI certainly seems to pop one every game, so I think 1/10000 sounds about right.
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
1 in 10,000 but how many mines are built during the game? Hundreds? I have had resources just appear even after tiles have been mined Mines not essential to win game. In a poor city okay for wealth I guess.

In my experience they tend to spawn in the same locations at times. Seen it before in SGOTM. Test games had gems spawning. They don't have to spawn on hills.

Of course waiting for resources to magically appear is not a great strat.
 

sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
3,540
Location
Finland
Test games had gems spawning. They don't have to spawn on hills.
That is interesting, considering you can only build a mine on hills (and resources).
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
1 in 10,000 but how many mines are built during the game? Hundreds?
For some players, apparently, it's more like zero :) (see Sampsa's response above)

For now I'm running a game, turn 105, and it's true I'm only working one resourceless mine. But this is certainly less than what I'd be working on average.

Even only 3 mines worked for 200 turns would give (with 1/10000) about 1 chance out of 3 to pop a resource. That seems a bit over-estimated to me.
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
Oh I include all mines in that including AI. I think I had copper spawn in my latest game. I had about 30 cities and quite a few mines. Maybe I should build windmills on my mines to allow growth?
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
Yeah, I had guessed that you were counting in AIs. Replacing resourceless mines with windmills in the late game seems relevant, since you only lose 1 prod (2 prod if railroad) and gain 1 food + some gold.
 

sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
3,540
Location
Finland
Even only 3 mines worked for 200 turns would give (with 1/10000) about 1 chance out of 3 to pop a resource.
Though you also need to take into account that mines (should) get worked less after the player has BW (and IW). Also you need to take into account that the variance from such a low frequency event is massive. Maybe you have been getting unlucky.
 

Berul

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
44
Though you also need to take into account that mines (should) get worked less after the player has BW (and IW). Also you need to take into account that the variance from such a low frequency event is massive. Maybe you have been getting unlucky.
I agree with the first sentence. Still, even after BW and IW are discovered, you'll likely have some cities with no iron and copper in the BFC and where a grassland mine will help boost production.

Regarding the second sentence, the low frequency is irrelevant : with 3 mines worked for 200 turns, the probability of popping at least one resource is very close to 26% (*) which, btw, is still very close to 600/2000 = 30%.
When checking for multiple games if a resource pops or not, the only relevant figure is 26%, not 1/10000.

(*) 1-(1-1/2000)^600 = 26%.
To get an exact formula, one should replace 1/2000 by 1/10000 * [1 + 9999/10000 + (9999/10000)^2 + (9999/10000)^3 + (9999/10000)^4 ]. However this will not change the result 26%. Only digits in the 0.01% range will change.
 
Last edited:

sampsa

Ghost
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
3,540
Location
Finland
Still, even after BW and IW are discovered, you'll likely have some cities with no iron and copper in the BFC and where a grassland mine will help boost production.
I had two points.
  1. Mines are at their prime pre-BW, pre-granary, thus they should be worked more often at that point vs later.
  2. You can't pop copper pre-BW or iron pre-IW.
edit. oh one more thing btw: you can't pop a resource in a tile that already has a non-discovered resource.
When checking for multiple games if a resource pops or not, the only relevant figure is 26%, not 1/10000.
This is very clear to me and I should've worded it more carefully. Though whether "the only relevant figure" is 26% or 0,01% depends on what you use as a sample, a game or a turn when a mine is being worked. I do not know why you think you can tell other people what to use.

Let's say someone has played a hundred games, so he should've popped a resource roughly 26 times. But because 100 is a very low sample, maybe he has popped a resource 10 times or 40 times, which might seriously skew his thoughts on the frequency that it happens. Or we can use worked mineT which is say ~60000 in those 100 games (which doesn't seem like a tiny sample) and the possibility of popping a res is 0,01%. The frequency of the event is so small that it requires a massive sample.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom