1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Similarities between FFH and LOTR

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by nzk13, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. nzk13

    nzk13 Some Jew-boy on Noble.

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    Can anyone point out some homages 2 Lord of the Rings in the mod, like the infamous Rhoanna/Eowyn?
     
  2. Skyre Noktis

    Skyre Noktis Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    Einion Logos' pic is supposed to be Gandalf, I believe.

    You could say that any fantasy setting with elves, dwarves and orcs is one big homage to Tolkien, really.
     
  3. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,901
  4. loocas

    loocas Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Seattle
    I wouldn't really call those homages so much, but I'd just say that Tolkien was the first to define fantasy as we know it. Classic mythology--mainly Celtic, Norse, and Judeo-Christian--are the most visible influences in FFH to me. I'd say myth influenced the story while Tolkien and others influenced the setting.

    Anyway, maybe that old easter egg thread has something in it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189536
     
  5. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    Its hard to define whats Tolkien as compared to everything else. Tolkien didn't invent many of the concepts he used which borrowed heavily from old english, germanic and norse folklore. But its likewise impossible to say what the fantasy landscape would look like if Tolkien hadn't popularized it and created such an influencial work to lead the way.

    Even though Im not a huge Tolkien fan, I've never read the books for example, its hard to understate how much much Tolkien influenced all of the fantasy writers I did read. So even if there isn't much direct drag and dropping, Tolkien deserves respect and thank for nearly everything fantasy that followed him.

    The pictures you mentioned aren't in because they are homages to Tolkien, they are in because I'm a huge fan of the artist, Justin Sweet, who I came to know because of his amazing work on the Icewind Dale games.

    The things most directly pulled from Tolkien are probably the Trents and Orcs. Though D&D probably influenced me more than Tolkien, its hard to imagine either of these would have been in D&D without Tolkien (assuming D&D would have existed at all without Tolkien popularizing fantasy).
     
  6. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,901
    FfH orcs are quite different then Tolkien orcs, like I outlined above. Now, the Ljos and the Khazad are quite close to your usual Tolkien-esque Elves and Dwarves.
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,258
    Location:
    Kael's head
    FfH Elves really aren't very Tolkienesque. For one thing, they are way too short.
     
  8. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,043
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    Hmm... the Ljos are maybe tolkienish, but some wierd hybrid of the Green elves and the Noldor.
     
  9. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    Sure, but accepting the fact that Tolkien made up the concept of Orcs, including the name, its hard to not give him credit for it.
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,258
    Location:
    Kael's head
    He didn't completely make up the name, just gave it a more modern form. Of course, the old English word he modernized wouldn't refer to the green guys we usually think of, but to some sort of undead abomination.

    Oh, also Tolkien's Orcs are not green. They have blackish skin and mongoloid features, as they were based largely on the Huns and the Mongels. I don't recall any bone spikes either. Although descended from Elves, they are shorter than humans. (In FfH Orcs are bigger and elves are smaller.) In Arda height is based largely on closeness to Melkor vs the other Valar, with humans and elves originally being of equal stature but elves generally growing taller and most human peoples shorter while the Orcs grew shorter still.



    Kael has never read books by Tolien?! How is that possible?! I feel I must insist this be rectified. I'm fine if you skip the Hobbbit or even The Lord of the Rings, but the Silmarillion is a must.



    FfH Treants and Arda's Ents aren't all that similar either. The former are plants briefly animated by a forest spirit, while the latter are an intelligent and incredibly long lived lifeform created by Yavanna's request to defend the forests from the dwarves her husband Aulë had made without consulting her and thus without thinking to make them respect nature.
     
  11. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    I love the idea of the Silmarillion, but as literature it put me to sleep.
     
  12. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Yeah, it can have that effect. :lol:

    Personally, I can read it straight through, but most of my friends couldn't. :lol:
     
  13. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,043
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    I think, though, kael, you should at least read the hobbit. it's much lighter and simpler to read than any of the other Middle earth books.

    of course, you should read them all, but, if only one...
     
  14. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Southampton, UK
    Re: FfH Elves. Isn't the -alfar suffix indicative of Norse mythology?

    I'd recommend starting with The Hobbit too. Because it was written as a children's story, it can be a little twee (not to the extent of Narnia), but it goes down fairly easily.

    Incidentally, Lewis and Tolkien were good friends. IIRC Lewis dedicated the Screwtape Letters to Tolkien.
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,258
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Yes, Lewis and Tolkien were quite close. Tolkien was a major influence that led Lewis to abandon his atheism and become a Christan. He was apparently quite upset though when Lewis joined the Church of England instead of becoming a devout Roman Catholic like himself.

    Tolkien also stated that he hates stories where characters travel back and forth between the "real world" and an alternate universe like in the Chronicles of Narnia. For Tolkien, Arda was an early Earth.
     
  16. Brenador

    Brenador Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    United States
    The beginning of the world is very similar to the Silmarillion. The One is similar to Eru/Iluvatar, as both of them were all that existed in the beginning of their worlds, and they created some very powerful angels (the Valar in LotR and the gods in FFH). Agares is similar to Melkor, but the One passing on is different. Also there is a theme in both that a war between the gods would destroy mortal civilization.

    Having goblins be a lesser version of orcs is more like Tolkien, as opposed to D&D where the goblins and orcs are two totally different races.

    While dragons have treasure hoards in many tales, Acheron and his hoard remind me of the dragon from the Hobbit.

    Falamar's name sounds a lot like Faramir, and he has a relationship with Rhoanna, who is obviously based on Eowyn, Faramir's true love in LotR.

    The visual influence is also there. Broken Lands, the Hell Terrain equivalent of Grassland, looks like Mordor, and the menu picture for the Tower of Eyes wonder looks like Barad-Dur.
     
  17. cyther

    cyther Lord of the Dance

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,033
    Location:
    Fane of Lessers
    Amusingly, the Tower of Eyes is actually a "good" building. It was used to contain Perpentach so he could not take over anyone else's mind. It looks sort of like a huge lighthouse based on the model used in FfH.

    Some mods went with the idea from the menu and used a model of Barad-Dur as the Tower of Eyes model.
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Actually, the model you speak of was made specifically for the Tower of Eyes. The LotR mod simply used it for Barad-Dur, so it's the other way around. ;)
     
  19. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,388
    Location:
    Earth
    I don't disagree with what you say, but the problem with your examples is that most are also older than Tolkien; as Kael said, for Tolkien's sources.

    Eru/Iluvatar and Melkor are clearly a reference to Christian themes, and esepcially Paradise Lost (whcih critics mentioned WAY back). The gods in FfH are similar to the gods in many mythologies - they remind me a lot of D&D 'spheres'. Wars between gods destroying civilization is a Germanic theme, also strongly present in modern literature (Moorcock).

    The goblins/orcs thing also reminds me of Tolkien, but I do think this similar to D & D where from a DM/story standpoint, they are kind of weaker orcs (although you can argue they are weaker then hobgoblins and orcs are different.)

    As you said, the dragon horde idea has been around forever, the most prominant the Fafnir/Sigfried story.

    Falamar, hmmm, I'll give you that one. But if Kael is saying he didn't take it from Tolkien I can buy that it is a coincidence.

    Broken lands/hell terrain like Mordor, yes I also buy that.

    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  20. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    2,002
    Broken lands wouldn't have been made by Kael anyway. If they were lifted from Mordor it was done by one of the members of the team that does art.
     

Share This Page