Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by nzk13, Jan 21, 2010.
Can anyone point out some homages 2 Lord of the Rings in the mod, like the infamous Rhoanna/Eowyn?
Einion Logos' pic is supposed to be Gandalf, I believe.
You could say that any fantasy setting with elves, dwarves and orcs is one big homage to Tolkien, really.
Is Ethne really Galadriel?
FfH Orcs are more like Blizzard-style orcs, though.
I wouldn't really call those homages so much, but I'd just say that Tolkien was the first to define fantasy as we know it. Classic mythology--mainly Celtic, Norse, and Judeo-Christian--are the most visible influences in FFH to me. I'd say myth influenced the story while Tolkien and others influenced the setting.
Anyway, maybe that old easter egg thread has something in it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189536
Its hard to define whats Tolkien as compared to everything else. Tolkien didn't invent many of the concepts he used which borrowed heavily from old english, germanic and norse folklore. But its likewise impossible to say what the fantasy landscape would look like if Tolkien hadn't popularized it and created such an influencial work to lead the way.
Even though Im not a huge Tolkien fan, I've never read the books for example, its hard to understate how much much Tolkien influenced all of the fantasy writers I did read. So even if there isn't much direct drag and dropping, Tolkien deserves respect and thank for nearly everything fantasy that followed him.
The pictures you mentioned aren't in because they are homages to Tolkien, they are in because I'm a huge fan of the artist, Justin Sweet, who I came to know because of his amazing work on the Icewind Dale games.
The things most directly pulled from Tolkien are probably the Trents and Orcs. Though D&D probably influenced me more than Tolkien, its hard to imagine either of these would have been in D&D without Tolkien (assuming D&D would have existed at all without Tolkien popularizing fantasy).
FfH orcs are quite different then Tolkien orcs, like I outlined above. Now, the Ljos and the Khazad are quite close to your usual Tolkien-esque Elves and Dwarves.
FfH Elves really aren't very Tolkienesque. For one thing, they are way too short.
Hmm... the Ljos are maybe tolkienish, but some wierd hybrid of the Green elves and the Noldor.
Sure, but accepting the fact that Tolkien made up the concept of Orcs, including the name, its hard to not give him credit for it.
He didn't completely make up the name, just gave it a more modern form. Of course, the old English word he modernized wouldn't refer to the green guys we usually think of, but to some sort of undead abomination.
Oh, also Tolkien's Orcs are not green. They have blackish skin and mongoloid features, as they were based largely on the Huns and the Mongels. I don't recall any bone spikes either. Although descended from Elves, they are shorter than humans. (In FfH Orcs are bigger and elves are smaller.) In Arda height is based largely on closeness to Melkor vs the other Valar, with humans and elves originally being of equal stature but elves generally growing taller and most human peoples shorter while the Orcs grew shorter still.
Kael has never read books by Tolien?! How is that possible?! I feel I must insist this be rectified. I'm fine if you skip the Hobbbit or even The Lord of the Rings, but the Silmarillion is a must.
FfH Treants and Arda's Ents aren't all that similar either. The former are plants briefly animated by a forest spirit, while the latter are an intelligent and incredibly long lived lifeform created by Yavanna's request to defend the forests from the dwarves her husband Aulë had made without consulting her and thus without thinking to make them respect nature.
I love the idea of the Silmarillion, but as literature it put me to sleep.
Yeah, it can have that effect.
Personally, I can read it straight through, but most of my friends couldn't.
I think, though, kael, you should at least read the hobbit. it's much lighter and simpler to read than any of the other Middle earth books.
of course, you should read them all, but, if only one...
Re: FfH Elves. Isn't the -alfar suffix indicative of Norse mythology?
I'd recommend starting with The Hobbit too. Because it was written as a children's story, it can be a little twee (not to the extent of Narnia), but it goes down fairly easily.
Incidentally, Lewis and Tolkien were good friends. IIRC Lewis dedicated the Screwtape Letters to Tolkien.
Yes, Lewis and Tolkien were quite close. Tolkien was a major influence that led Lewis to abandon his atheism and become a Christan. He was apparently quite upset though when Lewis joined the Church of England instead of becoming a devout Roman Catholic like himself.
Tolkien also stated that he hates stories where characters travel back and forth between the "real world" and an alternate universe like in the Chronicles of Narnia. For Tolkien, Arda was an early Earth.
The beginning of the world is very similar to the Silmarillion. The One is similar to Eru/Iluvatar, as both of them were all that existed in the beginning of their worlds, and they created some very powerful angels (the Valar in LotR and the gods in FFH). Agares is similar to Melkor, but the One passing on is different. Also there is a theme in both that a war between the gods would destroy mortal civilization.
Having goblins be a lesser version of orcs is more like Tolkien, as opposed to D&D where the goblins and orcs are two totally different races.
While dragons have treasure hoards in many tales, Acheron and his hoard remind me of the dragon from the Hobbit.
Falamar's name sounds a lot like Faramir, and he has a relationship with Rhoanna, who is obviously based on Eowyn, Faramir's true love in LotR.
The visual influence is also there. Broken Lands, the Hell Terrain equivalent of Grassland, looks like Mordor, and the menu picture for the Tower of Eyes wonder looks like Barad-Dur.
Amusingly, the Tower of Eyes is actually a "good" building. It was used to contain Perpentach so he could not take over anyone else's mind. It looks sort of like a huge lighthouse based on the model used in FfH.
Some mods went with the idea from the menu and used a model of Barad-Dur as the Tower of Eyes model.
Actually, the model you speak of was made specifically for the Tower of Eyes. The LotR mod simply used it for Barad-Dur, so it's the other way around.
I don't disagree with what you say, but the problem with your examples is that most are also older than Tolkien; as Kael said, for Tolkien's sources.
Eru/Iluvatar and Melkor are clearly a reference to Christian themes, and esepcially Paradise Lost (whcih critics mentioned WAY back). The gods in FfH are similar to the gods in many mythologies - they remind me a lot of D&D 'spheres'. Wars between gods destroying civilization is a Germanic theme, also strongly present in modern literature (Moorcock).
The goblins/orcs thing also reminds me of Tolkien, but I do think this similar to D & D where from a DM/story standpoint, they are kind of weaker orcs (although you can argue they are weaker then hobgoblins and orcs are different.)
As you said, the dragon horde idea has been around forever, the most prominant the Fafnir/Sigfried story.
Falamar, hmmm, I'll give you that one. But if Kael is saying he didn't take it from Tolkien I can buy that it is a coincidence.
Broken lands/hell terrain like Mordor, yes I also buy that.
Broken lands wouldn't have been made by Kael anyway. If they were lifted from Mordor it was done by one of the members of the team that does art.
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