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Sistine Chapel overpowered?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Tecibbar, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    I think Sistine Chapel is overpowered for cultural victory

    Now Sinstine Chapel gives all state religion building +5 culture. That culture doubles as well. It's very easy to build temple and monasty before 0~500 AD so that basically gives all three cities 2 free early wonder. if you found a religion, that will be 7 early wonders in totoal :king:

    With Sistine Chapel, I could easily win before 1900 in immortal, and of course I am not gonna research scientific method.
     
  2. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    I think they went way overboard with the culture bonus to state religion buildings. +2 :culture:/turn would have been fine, especially since the Sistine Chapel still does what it originally does for specialists. Aside from that, I'm kind of getting sick of all the wonders that provide bonuses to state religion building; it's just getting old now.
     
  3. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    the part i think is kinda sorta buggy, even if you don't consider the wonder itself overpowered (i haven't decided if i do), is that the wonder-given portion of the culture doubles. that seems odd to me, and... i can't think of the word. do i get the extra +5 1000 years after i built the temple or after 1000 years after i built sistine? after the temple, right, since sistine surely doesn't come early enough, right? i haven't really earned it yet imo. that would take too long to run one of my silly tests tho.

    i love that wonder for domination/conquest games (altho i'd rather capture it than build it ... nappy and louis are good about making it for me). it lets the conquered folks that don't have tiles to work due to culture control issues spend their time as one-hammer citizens earning me some culture, which'll earn me tiles, which is nifty.
     
  4. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    Culture sucked ass as a victory condition before the boost it got from the new Sistine Chapel. I'm all for the change.
     
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    It is interesting since it means Free Religion is no longer the best for a Cultural Win (assume your state religion has the Temple and Cathedral in the city) thats +10 for a state religion V. +6 from the Other religions if you went free religion (+10 if you had a non state holy city and 5 other religions)

    Perhaps if they limited it to Temples or made it +3 per State Religion Building
     
  6. Party

    Party Warlord

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    I love it the way it is. :)
     
  7. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    Why was free Religion the best? Diplomatic purpose? I think converting ur neibours to ur religion is better.

    I think culture victory is too easy for single player now, With the Chapel and new early wonders. It's still very hard against humans.

    I think AI should get -5 for "Our people are jelous of ur culture" :)
     
  8. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    AI already does get enoucht -XY for all kind of stupid stuff.
     
  9. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    On a somewhat related note, I do like the new bonus to Notre Dame...the +2 happiness makes it a little more worth building than just +1 happiness. But this new Sistine is ridiculous. It seems like they overcompensated for the medieval wonders, which were a little weak before and now quite strong.
     
  10. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Deity

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    I would not say overpowered. I would say great, but that's all.

    And that's what I like with CiV: everything, or almost, is great in some situations. One of the best thing about this game imo is to try and find synergies of these great things to make an even greater game/civilization/combat...

    I mean, we still have praetorians, immortals, war chariots and vulture, so why not sistine? :)
     
  11. Maben

    Maben Chieftain

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    I'm not gonna say it's overpowered, but that's cause I'm a cultural victory machine lol. I play LAN games a lot with friends, and I make it my life goal to make sure I get the Sistine Chapel. Scientific Method always gets researched as late as I possibly can wait.
     
  12. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    I just don't like the fact that there's no wonder or other features that benefit Free religion. It's so one-sided.
     
  13. Ace of Gold

    Ace of Gold MAKE WAY FOR THE BAD GUY

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    what does scientific meathod do
     
  14. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    It obsoletes monasteries, so that they no longer give a +10% beaker multiplier or receive the bonuses from Spiral Minaret, University of Sankore, and Sistine Chapel.

    They do still, however, give their normal +2 culture per turn and enable construction of missionaries.
     
  15. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    I always watch out for the AI who builds the Sistine Chapel because they're usually going to be in good position for a cultural victory, which is why I think they probably made the increase. To help the AI out some achieving cultural victories.
     
  16. Mr. Civtastic

    Mr. Civtastic Prince

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    The Sistine Chapel isnt overpowered. Its still "out of the way" on the tech tree. Its still expensive. And if you have very little religious buildings, well then you arent getting that bonus. And if youre building all those religious buildings and spreading your faith, you wont be building troops for defense. And of course you ALSO need to run specialists for the other bonus, which you wont be doing too much of in the early-mid game.

    Fact of the matter is you need to build other buildings to take advantage of the bonus. Its not like the pyramids or norte dame, build it and youre done. So by the time you build everything, you can add that cost to the initial cost of Sistine and see that youve spent a whole lot of hammers.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  17. The Rook

    The Rook King

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    It's powerful if playing for a cultural victory, but can be risky. It can be somewhat scary when your research slider has been switched off for the last 30 turns, and the AI is charging around with tanks whilst your cities are defended with riflemen, and diplomacy is strained as you are forced to follow a heathen religion in order to reap its benefits.
     
  18. RockTheCazbah87

    RockTheCazbah87 Pacal's pal

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    The Sistine isn't overpowered IMO, but coupled with the Hermitage for example would be a beast in a cultural victory. That's the danger you've gotta watch out for if an opponent builds it.
     
  19. Andraeianus I

    Andraeianus I Warlord

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    I recall a lot of posts before BTS that Sistine Chapel was close to worthless and now it is overpowered? You need to have a state religion to have its full bonus. Pre-BTS you would have free religion and spread as many religions for every religion granted you extra culture and the holy cities provided extra culture as well. The Sistine Chapel is ok to me, but I must admit it is close to essential for getting a cultural victory. The wonder has also been moved from theology to music, so the Oracle trick to get an easy cultural victory by getting Theology for free doesn't work any more.

    But I wonder, are there people/AI winning cultural victories without Sistine Chapel? How essential is this wonder? Some late corporations are also very strong for getting a cultural victory.
     
  20. The Rook

    The Rook King

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    Not very essential IMHO (that includes any means of generating culture after Nationalism/Liberalism). There are so many ways to generate culture, it becomes difficult to utilise them all in a single game. The main danger I find with winning the cultural way is keeping all the AIs at least "pleased" so that they are unlikely to attack you (when you have the slider at 100% culture), and for that, it helps if you can be flexible with your civics/religion choices. In my last cultural game (Emperor, standard, normal, continents) I ran a Theocracy with no state religion just to keep Zara pleased. Not a very strong combo I know, but the AI was such a long way off any form of victory, invasion was the only way it could stop me. Incidentally, that was probably the strangest game I'd ever played. I was stuck on an island, didn't manage a single tech trade (AI too far in front), didn't get alphabet until 1500AD, and Archery until after 1800AD. :D

    I haven't tried a game higher than Emperor yet, but I suspect that diplomacy would be even more important there. Unless by some fluke you occupy a continent where all AI's share the same religion, I think commiting to Sistine would be risky business (if you plan on generating most of your culture through commerce).
     

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