Sitting Bull - A Nice Builder

[dankok8]

Sitting Bull is one of the strong yet underrated leaders in the game IMO. protective archers/longbowmen with totem pole + dog soldiers means that few civs will be able to attack you successfully before gunpowder while you build wonders and expand peacefully. Even praetorians have a tough time against dog soldiers (in fact, their attack strengths against each other are equal assuming no promotions so you might even say dog soldiers are an ultimate anti-praetorian unit). By gunpowder, you should have a large advanced empire and be ahead in tech if you played you cards right; and you can always upgrade your CG3+ longbowmen to rifles to weather any renewed aggression.

If you have stone/marble, you have the best shot at cultural victory and if you don't, you can always build your way to space with an SE. Best civ for withstanding early rushes and best defensive civ along with HRE. What does everyone else think of him?

 

[Powerslave]

Well, Protective is generally a worthless trait. However, if you manage to get Feudalism quickly enough (through the Oracle, perhaps), you can field highly experienced longbowmen when everyone else is still using archers. My Drill IV longbowmen didn't even need help from catapults or swordsmen.

If you're a builder, then just choose someone who's got Financial or Industrious.

 

[triacontahedron]

Protective is far from worthless but it starts to shine when you reach gunpowder (drilled riflemen are better then the ones upgraded with srt). If you want to use totems aim for xbows rather then longbows having +50% against axes is huge. You can get MC from oracle and tech to machinery. Even if you are not protective getting xbows early sometimes would guarantee your domination for a while.

 

[Roxlimn]

The problem with Sitting Bull's defensive stance is that it predicates that you actually manage to get a decent land grab to begin with. If you start with Catherine and Genghis Khan for neighbors, good luck.

 

[Johan^^]

Sitting Bull is one of the strong yet underrated leaders in the game IMO. protective archers/longbowmen with totem pole + dog soldiers means that few civs will be able to attack you successfully before gunpowder while you build wonders and expand peacefully. Even praetorians have a tough time against dog soldiers (in fact, their attack strengths against each other are equal assuming no promotions so you might even say dog soldiers are an ultimate anti-praetorian unit). By gunpowder, you should have a large advanced empire and be ahead in tech if you played you cards right; and you can always upgrade your CG3+ longbowmen to rifles to weather any renewed aggression.

If you have stone/marble, you have the best shot at cultural victory and if you don't, you can always build your way to space with an SE. Best civ for withstanding early rushes and best defensive civ along with HRE. What does everyone else think of him?

You should really try playing as China then. Protective and Industrius. Good for wonder and good for defense. Their UU is very strong (Crossbowmen with siege effect!)

Though the most important is their UB. Theather with +25% This never goes obsolete and it´s a huge bonus if going for cultural win.

 

[Guardian_PL]

The problem with Sitting Bull's defensive stance is that it predicates that you actually manage to get a decent land grab to begin with. If you start with Catherine and Genghis Khan for neighbors, good luck.

lil' Dog Soldier/experienced archers rush, and if needed You can build up some swordsman later for hilled/high-culture cities. And some spears (even Britney will do xP) in case GK will go mad with his Keshiks
Not to mention that being Philosophical bears strong connection to SE, so going for specialists will help during pillaging wars and trust me, protective archer behind half-priced walls is really hard to kill


EDIT

But if You want to have a great building time while going for cultural take DeGaulle. That guy cured me of my Financial trait addiction Cha/Ind is a masterpiece! Build Stonehenge half price and it'll give You Monuments in all cities with +1 from Cha and culture. Any army You have will get strong in no time thanks to always helpful barbs. In my last game (Monarch,Fractal,Epic) I went religious heavy (to get cultural win), and I've managed to build three shrines and take fourth from Montezuma's dead hands. So now I'm earning extra 50-80gpt thanks to beelining to Privateers with Steel, and being charsmatic I have packs of two and they kill every water unit around two continents!

I don't like French, but DeGaulle ROCKS!

 

[Roxlimn]

It's not that they'll invade you. It's that they'll spam Settlers and box you in. As soon as they have Archers and some culture, Dog Soldiers become less than optimal attackers. If both are really near, you'd be in luck because you can rush them, but it's not always like that. The power of Settler spamming is such that they can start from a ways off and still manage to choke you out.

 

[triacontahedron]

It's not that they'll invade you. It's that they'll spam Settlers and box you in. As soon as they have Archers and some culture, Dog Soldiers become less than optimal attackers. If both are really near, you'd be in luck because you can rush them, but it's not always like that. The power of Settler spamming is such that they can start from a ways off and still manage to choke you out.

Why Sitting Bull is is in a disadvantage to chocking? Your statement is true for any leader. Either some civilizations are close too you in this case you can rush them or they are all quite far away then you have some time to build 3-5 cities , get to machinery for drilled xbows and wipe out all neighbors.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Like I wrote above - if it's very close to You, barracks+totem+protective will give You drill III archer. suicide it on city defender and finish with Dog Soldier (useless on capital but new cities without culture are basically gone). Or build three cities, beeline to Iron Working for swords and job done.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

If you have stone and iron then I think an extremely powerful strategy would be:

1) Build pyramids ASAP - before a second city if you have stone in BFC otherwise settle close to stone, chopping whatever you need to.

2) Expand to cities 2 and 3. If possible build stonehenge - not essential but nice. Don't build in same city as pyramids.

3) Head straight to Oracle. Again chop it out - no more than three cities required. Two would be OK.

4) Either take metalcasting with Oracle and use Engineer from Pyramids to lightbulb machinery or the other way around. Gets you very early crossbows when absolutely nothing can counter them.

To me Sitting Bull is a war leader - getting early vassalage or machinery gives a big military advantage.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Yup, that's what we love - versatile leaders. Same with Alex, You can war-monger till the end of time or phalanx-rush closest victim and squeeze Philosophical to the extreme. Sitting Bull can go either way too.
BTW that's VERY impressive strategy InvisibleStalke, I wonder if it'd work on Emperor...

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Yup, that's what we love - versatile leaders. Same with Alex, You can war-monger till the end of time or phalanx-rush closest victim and squeeze Philosophical to the extreme. Sitting Bull can go either way too.
BTW that's VERY impressive strategy InvisibleStalke, I wonder if it'd work on Emperor...

I think it would work - but some luck required - particularly in getting stone. And maybe some luck in the AI tech choices.

On Monarch I easily pulled off both Pyramids and an Oracle slingshot to Feudalism - which was also devastating. Machinery actually seems like a safer bet though:

1. If you have stone then on Emperor Pyramids is basically assured - the AIs don't seem to rush this wonder any more and you go for this first.

2. Oracle isn't assured - but its usually doable. You aren't deviating too much from going straight to priesthood - probably just BW and masonry. And the tech prerequisites for metal casting are a lot easier than the tech prerequisites for feudalism.

Iron is probably the biggest gamble - you can't see whether you have it until you have iron working which is out of your initial tech path. If you can't secure Iron then you can't build crossbows.

So I would say its definitely doable on Emperor, but if you don't get Iron then you have essentially blown it.

 

[dankok8]

You should really try playing as China then. Protective and Industrius. Good for wonder and good for defense. Their UU is very strong (Crossbowmen with siege effect!)

Though the most important is their UB. Theather with +25% This never goes obsolete and it´s a huge bonus if going for cultural win.

I did try playing as Qin Shi Huang quite a bit and with a lot of success with chu-ko-nu's. However, I find that Qin and proly Sitting Bull as well will run out of steam by the modern era and become a suboptimal civ. Neverthelss, if I'm playing multiplayer and many people pick the Romans or even other civs commonly used for rushing, I'll pick Sitting Bull if I wanna pursue a building game. If I want to do some warmongering myself, then Romans. Veni Vidi Vici.

 

[DutchJob]

civs never run out of steam. you either do or dont.

 

[Roxlimn]

Qin?!? Run out of steam in the Modern Era? How? Would that be because he builds Wonders like West Point and Ironworks at a production bonus, or because his infantry troops all get free promotions? Drill 3 and Drill 4 Marines kick ass.

 

[dankok8]

civs never run out of steam. you either do or dont.

Well, I find industrious to not be a very valuable trait in the end game because I barely build any wonders at that time and even if I do, I can almost always finish before the AI. Protective is also quite weak because your defensive units will already likely be highly promoted due to upgrades, barracks, settled instructors, west point etc. Unlike those, traits like financial, organized, and even expansive remain strong to the end.

Qin?!? Run out of steam in the Modern Era? How? Would that be because he builds Wonders like West Point and Ironworks at a production bonus, or because his infantry troops all get free promotions? Drill 3 and Drill 4 Marines kick ass.

Ironworks becomes available with steel and that's still industrial age. West Point I think becomes available by Military Tradition (not sure) which is in fact early industrial. Drill 3 and 4 marines are sick though!!

 

[Roxlimn]

Ah, you mean the technical "Modern Age" of the game. I don't know that Qin is bad at that. Rock and Roll, Eiffel Tower, and Hollywood are all excellent Wonders to acquire. In the Modern Age, Qin's Protective boosted Marines, Paratroopers, and Infantry kick major butt, not to mention the nice boost on SAM Infantry and Anti-Tank.

Highly promoted units are great, but highly promoted Protective units are way better. Drafting units with the Protective or Aggressive trait is pure gravy. I just don't see where the Protective trait loses steam in the Modern Age. If anything, it gets better.

 

[vicawoo]

How would you get pyramids before anyone has stonehenge or oracle? Would never happen in warlords.

 

[dankok8]

Ah, you mean the technical "Modern Age" of the game. I don't know that Qin is bad at that. Rock and Roll, Eiffel Tower, and Hollywood are all excellent Wonders to acquire. In the Modern Age, Qin's Protective boosted Marines, Paratroopers, and Infantry kick major butt, not to mention the nice boost on SAM Infantry and Anti-Tank.

Highly promoted units are great, but highly promoted Protective units are way better. Drafting units with the Protective or Aggressive trait is pure gravy. I just don't see where the Protective trait loses steam in the Modern Age. If anything, it gets better.

I didn't really mean bad, just comparatively worse to how good his traits are in the early/mid game and to leaders that are great in the modern age. All American, German and British leaders along with builders like Pacal, Mansa, Hannibal, and Wang Kon are better in the modern age than Qin.

I played games as Qin in warlords and I find that AI's like Liz and Mansa start to catch up in tech around late industrial or modern age where their financial traits take off considerably as their cottages mature. None of Qin's traits, UB , or UU were meant to be powerful in the late game, but average at best.

Either way, I suspect (this is where the discussion started ) that Sitting Bull experiences a far worse late game slump than Qin. He's also protective + philosophical and we all now SE becomes less powerful in the late game. On top of that, his UB is far obsoleted as is his UU. If you are Sitting Bull, you want to build a large empire, fight only defensive wars, and hopefully get ahead in tech so much that no one can catch you.

 

[Roxlimn]

dankok8:

Now you've just completely lost me. Qin's early game is nowhere near as explosive as any of the Financial leaders, particularly in tech and expansion. Early game, he's strictly a defensive builder. You can leverage his traits and UU for an early Cho Ko Nu invasion, but that's about it.

When you mature into the late game, the Financial advantage is minimized. Towns that produce 9 Commerce isn't all THAT advantageous compared to Towns that produce 8 Commerce. That's a 15% advantage at best.

Qin's (and any Protective Civ's really) ground forces in the Modern Age are a force to be reckoned with! He'll likely have all the Wonders he needs to make them scary good (using his Industrious Trait to get both West Point and Pentagon) on top of their free promotions.

AND he can draft a ton of Drill 3 City Garrison Infantry. Navy Seals won't match that kind of brute military might on the strength of their traits alone. Apart from Chruchill, who's also Protective, the other British Monarchs will quiver in their boots at the sight of such armies.

I simply don't share your experience. The Protective trait is far and away more powerful in the late game than it is in the early parts of the game.