Sitting (on a) Bull - How to de-virgin a Monarch

[Pangaea]

Have been playing at Noble for a while now, finishing few games but feeling quite allright at the competition. Often struggle with happiness cap, and have a nasty habit of crashing the economy after an early rush, usually after settling two cities. But it's probably time to step it up. Have heard you may as well drop Prince and go straight to Monarch, so I'm doing that. Eeeek! Would love some help, of course

Last game at Noble ended up alone with Shaka on a Fractal map, and it got a bit boring after wiping him out early. So hope the map gods are kinder this time around.

Standard settings. Fractal. Monarch. No huts or events.

Not terribly lucky with the leader: Sitting Bull (hence the lousy pun in the title).
Starts with Fishing and Agriculture - which happens to be perfect for this map.

UU is Dog Soldier, which looks underwhelming, but apparently we only need Bronze Working and not actually Copper, so it may be useful afterall.

UB is Totem Pole, which only adds 3XP to Archers. I rarely build those, but perhaps it's warranted here.

The start

Coastal start, but our starting techs are perfect with clams and wet corn if we SIP. Is that the best? Unfortunately the warrior is on the 'wrong' side. My mapreading skills aren't all that, but it looks like another floodplain to the west, and possibly a grassy forest north of that.

Zooming in, it actually looks like there may be coast on both visible sides. In any case, there are at least two rivers here.

I'm thinking SIP and go straight for Bronze Working to use the Dog Soldier and hopefully see Copper nearby.

How about build order? Is Worker -> Boat -> Warrior -> Settler the way to go, or is that too slow? Start with Boat then Worker to grow to 2 or possibly 3 first?

With so much food nearby, happiness is bound to be an issue again. How do you guys (and gals) solve that?

 

[bhavv]

Dog Soldiers are not underwhelming , and the UB opens up a potential Longbow rush with Oracled Feudalism which would be very simple and easy to do on Monarch especially with Marble.

I thought of settling 1W, but it looks like it would lose too much production.

 

[DMOC]

Settle in place and build a worker first while researching Mining -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel. When the worker has been produced, immediately farm the corn for rapid growth. After the worker, I would recommend workboat production to boat the clams. Perhaps use the whip to produce one of the two workboats, and/or use chopping. Once you're at size 3 or 4 (depending on opponent proximity) start settler production and use chops.

Good luck!

 

[The Oz-Man]

Wet corn, fresh water, plenty of hills, food that your leader can use, and marble in the BFC--good case for settling in place. Philosophical Sitting Bull of course likes seeing that particular wonder resource, so you might look to build the Great Library somewhere. Short-term, though, get a worker out to get the wet corn online. Tech toward BW like DMOC said. You might look at feeding another city to the south with one of those clams.

A Feudalism slingshot looks like an interesting gambit. I don't know if you'll quite be able to pull it off with your first go on Monarch, but it might be a good exercise. Remember that most Oracle slingshots require a pretty straightforward beeline, so you may need to forgo a few techs that you'd normally get in order to make it work. If you can get it to happen, though, you'll have a powerful unit for this particular leader.

Sitting Bull's not bad. Don't think of the Dog Soldiers as his UU (I sort of agree that they're kind of meh); think of Bull as having every single archery unit for a UU. 8 XP with a Barracks and Totem Pole on a Protective leader is just nuts. Try exploring the Drill line of promotions if you haven't.

 

[Gumbolt]

Settle in place and build a worker first while researching Mining -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel. When the worker has been produced, immediately farm the corn for rapid growth. After the worker, I would recommend workboat production to boat the clams. Perhaps use the whip to produce one of the two workboats, and/or use chopping. Once you're at size 3 or 4 (depending on opponent proximity) start settler production and use chops.

Good luck!

Yep that sums it up pretty well. Focus on the corn rather than the clams. With all the flood plains nearby chances are you might find some gold nearby too for happiness.

Chances are HR civic or resources will keep cities happy.

There is nothing wrong crashing the economy after a rush. Just use scientist to help reach alphabet/currency and COL to recover the economy.

 

[Pangaea]

With uniform advice I settle in place and discover another pig to the south, and soon thereafter fish off the coast, and yet more pigs to the north. With 8(!) food resources nearby, starving isn't an immediate concern Unfortunately there is jungle to the north and we're at the tip of a peninsula.

In 3360BC, Suryvarman sends a messager over to say "Hello". Not the best of neighbours, I've heard, as he tends to expand quickly, which isn't exactly what I need in this position.

Murphy's Law almost strikes big-time as my warrior on a jungled hill almost dies to a lion with a 1.0% combat chance, and has to rest up for 5 turns, limiting further scouting. When he gets up from his sickbed he locates Sury just north of the thankfully not too thick belt of jungle.

Had to put up a farm on the floodplains as the worker didn't have anything to do, then worked the forested plains hill to get out the workboat faster, once size hit 2. Work boat came out the same turn the city bumped to 3, so that worked out allright. Have put a settler in the queue now (10 turns), and plan to move the worker over to chop him, with possibly help of whip too just to get him out quickly (if you deem that needed given the neighbour).

As you can see there is copper just outside the capital. Not as essential here as I can produce dog soldiers without it, but I suppose it's best to put city number 2 in that direction. Can't get both fish and pig in the popped border. The other alternative is the eastern pig and floodplains. Actually, the western pig is jungled so perhaps NE is best?

The location is strong on food, but other than that there is a good chance of getting boxed in, so I'm thinking it's best to head north while we still can.

Not seen any other civs yet, so I hope it's not another duo-continent kind of deal.

Going for the Oracle and Longbowmen sounds interesting. Might want to try that, so guess I'll have to forgo pottery and just head down the religious path if I want to get it. Then hopefully get done with monarchy while building the Oracle. Rarely go down there so early (prefer to trade it) and go for Alphabet>Currency instead. But it sounds like it might be worth it here if we can get good longbowmen early.

Would that be (after Wheel): Masonry -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood ->Monarchy ? That will take quite a while, and I won't have Animal Husbandry (pigs), Pottery or Writing.

Not sure what to do now, so will leave it at this point, in 2880BC.

 

[Seraiel]

UB is Totem Pole, which only adds 3XP to Archers. I rarely build those, but perhaps it's warranted here.

You know that XBows are also Archer-units?

SB is philosophical and the best XBow rusher in the game, Oracle MC, chopwhip a Forge, run an Engineer Specialist, bulb Engineering with him and have XBows in an era where the others have Swordsmen at best, fighting against those with high promoted XBows is better than having Praetorians.

I think this is a very good training for you to learn beelines and focus and Oracle -> MC + the Engineering bulb can be done on every difficulty, while Oracle Feudalism needs a lot more Commerce and Longbows aren't as good as XBows.

Take the start DMOC proposed, or, try this (should give more Commerce but a little less production imho) :

Build 2 Workboats while focussing Hammers and beeline BW.
Whip the a Worker beelining Priesthood, imrpove Corn.
Improve Corn green hill, then you have 4 good tiles with the Seafood.
Build Settler at size 4, research Masonry after Priesthood, followed by TW and Pottery.
Start chopping out the Oracle once the Marble is online.
Oracle MC before 2000 BC, you should have 2-3 cities at that time.

After that, followup with chopwhipped Forge, Engineer-Specialist, Engineering bulb and conquer everyone with XBows.

HF, Sera

 

[Seraiel]

With uniform advice I settle in place and discover another pig to the south, and soon thereafter fish off the coast, and yet more pigs to the north. With 8(!) food resources nearby, starving isn't an immediate concern Unfortunately there is jungle to the north and we're at the tip of a peninsula.

In 3360BC, Suryvarman sends a messager over to say "Hello". Not the best of neighbours, I've heard, as he tends to expand quickly, which isn't exactly what I need in this position.

Murphy's Law almost strikes big-time as my warrior on a jungled hill almost dies to a lion with a 1.0% combat chance, and has to rest up for 5 turns, limiting further scouting. When he gets up from his sickbed he locates Sury just north of the thankfully not too thick belt of jungle.

Had to put up a farm on the floodplains as the worker didn't have anything to do, then worked the forested plains hill to get out the workboat faster, once size hit 2. Work boat came out the same turn the city bumped to 3, so that worked out allright. Have put a settler in the queue now (10 turns), and plan to move the worker over to chop him, with possibly help of whip too just to get him out quickly (if you deem that needed given the neighbour).

Don't build Settler at size 3 when you have more good tiles and so much land. Build another WB and grow at least to size 4.

As you can see there is copper just outside the capital. Not as essential here as I can produce dog soldiers without it, but I suppose it's best to put city number 2 in that direction. Can't get both fish and pig in the popped border. The other alternative is the eastern pig and floodplains. Actually, the western pig is jungled so perhaps NE is best?

The location is strong on food, but other than that there is a good chance of getting boxed in, so I'm thinking it's best to head north while we still can.

Not seen any other civs yet, so I hope it's not another duo-continent kind of deal.

1N of Copper sounds good. Use the FP from the Capital for that city. 2N is imo no good beccause you'll need a borderpop to have some food, therefor, the city will take very long till it can provide something to empire.

After that, found 2nd city on the Norther Floodplain in the East. That city has 3 green hills + Pigs which will be very nice in terms of production.

Going for the Oracle and Longbowmen sounds interesting. Might want to try that, so guess I'll have to forgo pottery and just head down the religious path if I want to get it. Then hopefully get done with monarchy while building the Oracle. Rarely go down there so early (prefer to trade it) and go for Alphabet>Currency instead. But it sounds like it might be worth it here if we can get good longbowmen early.

Would that be (after Wheel): Masonry -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood ->Monarchy ? That will take quite a while, and I won't have Animal Husbandry (pigs), Pottery or Writing.

Not sure what to do now, so will leave it at this point, in 2880BC.

Forget the Longbows, that start doesn't have enough Commerce for that (and in addition, Longbows suck in contrast to XBows) . I've done several Longbow rushes with Oracled Feudalism already, against normal ancient units you still need 2:1 numbers, XBows are the safer and better way.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As you can see there is copper just outside the capital. Not as essential here as I can produce dog soldiers without it, but I suppose it's best to put city number 2 in that direction.

Give that more thought before you commit. The copper, and also the pigs, are third ring. So you'll get to start working them at turn 50/51 whether you put a city over there or not.

Sharing the fish and the copper is a good thought, as the easily improved copper mine will help you reach the fish. But even so, it's going to be slow (6 turns for a totem pole, then another 10 for the border pop? that's a lot of turns with no food boost).

I'd look to settling the eastern pigs first. You've a couple different ways to play that into an early production center to take some of the pressure off of Cahokia


Can't get both fish and pig in the popped border. The other alternative is the eastern pig and floodplains. Actually, the western pig is jungled so perhaps NE is best?[/QUOTE]

 

[Gumbolt]

Erm AH should be pretty high on your tech lists. Do you need wheel now unless you are planning a axe rush on Sury.

When does the capital border pop again?? This could capture the copper. 1w of the pigs would allow you a good food resource to work. You have dogsoldiers so copper is not essential asap. You could even do a dog soldier rush.

All this longbow rush with feudalism will teach you little about how to play the game. Rushing with LB is not great. I did test this.

Oracle for COL will allow you to abuse your traits and produce 2-3 scientist great people. If you go this route then tech AH, med, PH and grab codes of law with the Oracle. Chop the Oracle.

Don't be afraid to share the capitals food. You have a fish/corn/clams city east of your capital. You have room for 5 cities. You may want to block off some land around Sury for the rice.

Alternatively:
You are close enough to try an axe rush on Sury. Build your second city and chop/ whip 9-10 axes and attack Sury pre 1500bc or so. This will secure you much needed land. You may also pick up some happiness resources. This will stop Sury boxing you in.

Overall you either play to grab the land by conquest or peace with long term goal to tech to curs/rifles and bash some AI. To do this you will need to abuse great people and set up a great people farm. Your capital could easily run 4-5 specialists.

Good luck.

 

[Mylene]

Oracling big stuffs like Feud. or CS is not something i would advice.
Several reasons..you dun wanna do that on higher diff, so getting used to tactics that only work on Monarch isn't great.
And you have marble + Phi leader, CoL or Aesthetics are your strong options here.
There's no need for rushing plans with such great land.

 

[Chuwe3y]

Sury is expansive, remember to settle in military resources asap, or whatever you plan to do. Most of the games I play in Sury has always seem to backstab me even with high happiness because of his expansive trait it seems. Maybe I'm just unlucky. GL

 

[The Oz-Man]

This one might be tough if you've just moved up a level. That said, with a hard beeline (and running specialists) Oracle for Feudalism is totally doable. A Longbow/Cat war with Sury can be really effective.

 

[Seraiel]

Has anybody even read what I wrote about Oracling MC and bulbing Engineering for an XBow Rush?

He / She is playing Sitting Bull, the best XBow rusher in the game, why would you even care about Longbows?

 

[Gumbolt]

Has anybody even read what I wrote about Oracling MC and bulbing Engineering for an XBow Rush?

He / She is playing Sitting Bull, the best XBow rusher in the game, why would you even care about Longbows?

China has the best xbow rusher due to their UU. Give them 7-8 first strikes and the collateral damage makes it easy. Especially on Monarchy or lower. Like Mylene said you don't learn the game by playing too unique strategies.

The best way to get bulbing strategies is to open up COL. With 5-6 cities he should be able to reach / trade for deep techs.

 

[Seraiel]

China the best XBow rusher?

Have you heard of PHI trait and do you know how much later China gets Cho-Ku's then SB XBows?

And Engineering rush is no unique Strategy, it's a strategy that works with many Civs and is well worth learning, especially if someone wants to move up the lvls.

And what is that for an argument? You don't learn the game if you learn bulblines? Oh, yes, one learns the game by always waiting until Cuirrassiers, and players don't use bulbs to get those.

 

[The Oz-Man]

To be fair, the reason I recommended Oracle for Feudalism was that HR is on the way there--which, given the lack of happiness resources pre-Calendar, he's going to need. Crossbows would be a better rushing unit, but Oracling Feudalism and bulbing Math before heading to Construction will get him a fairly quick rush as well.

 

[bhavv]

I just tried and managed to bulb Machinery, but as Oz said I didnt have Monarchy as fast. But then I also got a second Great Engineer that rushed the Pyramids. I think its meant to be doable a lot sooner than 225 BC though, the lack of commerce doesnt help

 

[pigswill]

Or maybe a straightforward one city dog rush, there's certainly no other civ really nearby and if Sury's pumping out workers and settlers he won't be pumping out too much military. One city rush is surely a good gambit at virtually any difficulty. 3 hills in BFC, even improved marble gives some hammers and there's food enough to support mines. It may well be worth considering second worker at 3 pop, whip it asap because faster tile improvements and chopping is useful at this stage.

 

[Pangaea]

Always almost get out a settler after worker>warrior(>warrior), but it makes sense to wait a bit here given all the food. So have changed to another workboat, and working the 3 forest. Unchopped, that's 8 turns, but I'll put a chop into it.

For the moment, I have queued up a warrior and settler after that. There is also the issue of workers, I only have one thus far.

City placement is tougher. You're right that copper and jungle pig will get popped by capital in turn ~51 though, and I can't work the pig withouth AH and IW, so I'm thinking maybe it's best to head up to the floodplains pig instead as the 2nd city. Don't like to settle on FP as they offer good food or great cottages, but it looks like the best option here.

Then I'm thinking the copper-fish after that, and then possibly all the way up to the rise unless Sury has gone down there already - which I suppose is quite likely.

How does the dotmap look? Even if Sury takes the rise, it will give me 6 cities, all pretty decent once IW is in. On a second thought, the capital will take care of the jungle pig anyway, so maybe best to move that middle site 1NE to get river-health.

Then to the most difficult: Tech path

Beelining to Oracle makes sense given accessible marble, but I'm really unsure what to do with it, given the various opinions. Going for Crossbows sounds intriguing due to their +50% melee bonus. Longbows are basically defenders, so Crossbows should be more useful on the offense. The big issue is how do I get there, and is it the best choice?

The more conventional choice is Oracling Code of Laws, but then I need Writing first.

You say I need to Oracle Metal Casting and then put in an engineer specialist that will bulb Engineering. But isn't it Machinery I need? Will he pop this, or Engineering? It will then take a while before enough are manufactured to go on the offense, though by then I should have two good production sites in capital on NE pigs.

Really need AH though, which takes 15 turns (including 4 left of the Wheel), then the religious stuff. Will I still have time to get the Oracle?

Lots of questions there, but as you can understand this advanced gambit stuff is new to me, thinking so many steps ahead, so I'm unsure how to pull it off, and if it can be done.