Six Great Scientists at Once...For Five Civ's?

[steveg700]

I spent a big pile of gold to claim a GS. Normally when this means the next great person comes at a higher cost, right?

What happened here instead is that as soon I got the GS, six of the nine AI civ's leapt forward to having all earned their own GS. And Hungary unlocked two!

Most of these civ's weren't even close to earning the GS I snagged. Anyone experienced anything like this?

 

[Leyrann]

The first Great Person of an era is more expensive than the others from that era (maybe this is only if they were unlocked before the game arrived in that era, not sure on that). If they were over like 60% or something of the cost, then suddenly they'd have enough.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Here's how Cost works.

Each Era has a specific cost (60 for Classical, 120 for Medieval),

When you recruit a person and the game is in the same Era, the cost doesn't change. If you recruit a person but the next person is from the subsequent era, the cost is inflated (120 becomes 155).

Problem *is*, when the game Enters Medieval era, and said Person is yet to be recrutied, if you recruit era the next Person is still from Medieval Era, and once against Costs 120.

What *then* happens is that the price goes down while other player's points don't, so if you recruited it naturally at 155/155, but Player 2 had 130/155, then suddenly they find themselves at 130/120, they recruit, the next player has 120/120, and all of a sudden the price inflates because all of the same Era's people have been recruited, this is why you often observe Great Scientist being taken like hot-cakes at a baking sale.

It's one of my bigger gripes with the game. I also think if by some strange miracle You are recruiting a person from an older era, the cost is cheaper.

As far as I know, Recruiting with Gold and Faith has zero effect on the cost of the next person, only if you pass does the cost go down.

Also, the price inflation varies with era difference, If the game is Medieval Era but suddenly you are recruiting Industrial Era, the cost can be as high 1250, which makes the situation even more ridicolous.

 

[steveg700]

Also, the price inflation varies with era difference, If the game is Medieval Era but suddenly you are recruiting Industrial Era, the cost can be as high 1250, which makes the situation even more ridicolous.

Appreciate the detailed response concerning the Oprahfication of GS's. I got the one who adds +4 to research labs, so that's going to be a modern or information era GS. That tracks.

Does any of this explain one civ getting two GS's at once?

 

[Linklite]

Does any of this explain one civ getting two GS's at once?

Obviously it explains one, maybe they bought the other one?

 

[steveg700]

Well, Alan T. is certainly is a booby prize of a GS, so I cannot blame anyone for cracking the piggy bank for Nobel.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Yes, this can be an unpleasant aspect of the game, though I like to think of it as a renaissance of sorts with the great minds assembling in Copenhagen to discuss quantum mechanics.

I actually had to do some testing to get my head around this. One surprising thing I came across is that if you happen to amass large quantities of faith or gold in the Ancient Era, there appears to be no penalty for recruiting from an advanced era hhhhh's "Cost of Great Person" thread covers the basics with added detail. In particular, Lily Lancer's math as follows held for me:

diff=era of GP-world era when the GP first appears

cost=(1+0.3*diff)^diff*base_cost, round down to 5.

For example, Information era GP appearing at T165(Industrial Era), cost 1320*(1.9^3)=9050.

Note, in the Classical Era, where larger maps with more civilizations can quickly exhaust the base number of Great People, especially the Great Scientists, the exponential cost bites real quick: 30, 75, 305, 1440, 7725, 46875, 318015 for the respective eras on online speed. The cost recalculates upon reaching a new era, as the era difference is a variable in the cost, so the first Medieval Great Scientist in the Medieval Era may cost 75 points, but the next one will reset to the base cost. Similarly, the first Renaissance Great Scientist in the Medieval Era may cost 305 points, but the next one will cost 155.

I also think if by some strange miracle You are recruiting a person from an older era, the cost is cheaper.

The base cost did not appear to decrease favorably from era difference in my tests. Not sure how this works in terms of Lily Lancer's formula.

I also could not confirm a phenomenon I noted years ago where I could micromanage several projects to trigger simultaneously so I could pass on an expensive Great Person in order to pick up the following ones at base cost all on the same turn. When I tried that in the tests, I could pass on a Great Person but was unable to pick up the following ones despite having an excess of points. Has anyone else had this experience?

There are several mods on the Steam Workshop that greatly expand the number of Great People and this can really help improve the balance for larger maps and greater numbers of civilizations. Even with added Great People, it is still very much possible to run into the exponential cost.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

There are several mods on the Steam Workshop that greatly expand the number of Great People and this can really help improve the balance for larger maps and greater numbers of civilizations. Even with added Great People, it is still very much possible to run into the exponential cost.

Do you have a list of them? I have few that have more people as a second-feature (Grand Eras, District Expanded)

Also, I think the biggest issue is that I don't mind the scaling changing, it shoudl be weird getting Late-Game people earlier,

But the issue is that player points should also be scaled down/up when costs changes, so that everyone has an equal % of people points when that cost changes.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

The main ones I have used are Nyguita's More Great People, Ethone's Great Women of the Ages, Plati's Sumus Magnus - Great People Expansion, and SeelingCat's Magnum Opus - Great Person Adjustments. I would ideally like to consolidate them and resolve redundancies, but that is something I am looking into that is not a particularly high priority. Not only do these mods fill out the larger maps, but they also demonstrate considerable thought from those creators. I am aware of a few other mods in the workshop, but these formed the core for me.

But the issue is that player points should also be scaled down/up when costs changes, so that everyone has an equal % of people points when that cost changes.

I would be open to rescaling points, but it would really bite for multiple players to lose thousands of points on a fairly routine basis.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

The main ones I have used are Nyguita's More Great People, Ethone's Great Women of the Ages, Plati's Sumus Magnus - Great People Expansion, and SeelingCat's Magnum Opus - Great Person Adjustments. I would ideally like to consolidate them and resolve redundancies, but that is something I am looking into that is not a particularly high priority. Not only do these mods fill out the larger maps, but they also demonstrate considerable thought from those creators. I am aware of a few other mods in the workshop, but these formed the core for me.



I would be open to rescaling points, but it would really bite for multiple players to lose thousands of points on a fairly routine basis.

Would it? It would scale to fit the 100%

So if you had 30% of a 155 person, then next you are swapped to 36 out of 122, and vice versa for increasing (going from 46.5 to 78.

You'r position doesn't change, but suddenly you might have an advantage, because your per turn income doesn't change.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Would it? It would scale to fit the 100%

So if you had 30% of a 155 person, then next you are swapped to 36 out of 122, and vice versa for increasing (going from 46.5 to 78.

You'r position doesn't change, but suddenly you might have an advantage, because your per turn income doesn't change.

Perhaps I jumped straight to a worst case scenario, in which case I am sorry for not giving your idea more thought. The transition state is what I was initially drawn to, so let's consider a common occurrence where Renaissance Great Scientists are all recruited in the Classical Era.

Consider the player after the one who recruits the last Renaissance Great Scientist. Perhaps they have 99% of the points, say 302 of 305 at online speed. When the Industrial cohort now becomes available, the player will still have 99%, but this time out of 1440, so roughly 1426, after an increase of 1,124 points due to scaling. Conversely, if the game passes into the Medieval Era, and the next Industrial Great Scientist is recruited, then the cost will drop from 1440 to 535, and the player with 99% will lose 896 points to land at 530.

In the above case, it would seem to make it easier to get Great People ahead of time by scaling up whatever a player has at the transition point, though this would be offset to an extent by the loss of points related to era advance. I admit this is contrary to my initial response, where I focused on the latter, lower loss instead of the scaling gains.

I can easily see players complaining about the loss of points (especially considering these numbers are just for online speed), but I can also imagine an exploit opening up where one could pass on a Great Scientist and then chain multiple Research Grants so as to scale a large base into an enormous sum and wipe out the Industrial cohort.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Perhaps I jumped straight to a worst case scenario, in which case I am sorry for not giving your idea more thought. The transition state is what I was initially drawn to, so let's consider a common occurrence where Renaissance Great Scientists are all recruited in the Classical Era.

Consider the player after the one who recruits the last Renaissance Great Scientist. Perhaps they have 99% of the points, say 302 of 305 at online speed. When the Industrial cohort now becomes available, the player will still have 99%, but this time out of 1440, so roughly 1426, after an increase of 1,124 points due to scaling. Conversely, if the game passes into the Medieval Era, and the next Industrial Great Scientist is recruited, then the cost will drop from 1440 to 535, and the player with 99% will lose 896 points to land at 530.

In the above case, it would seem to make it easier to get Great People ahead of time by scaling up whatever a player has at the transition point, though this would be offset to an extent by the loss of points related to era advance. I admit this is contrary to my initial response, where I focused on the latter, lower loss instead of the scaling gains.

I can easily see players complaining about the loss of points (especially considering these numbers are just for online speed), but I can also imagine an exploit opening up where one could pass on a Great Scientist and then chain multiple Research Grants so as to scale a large base into an enormous sum and wipe out the Industrial cohort.

In fairness, I might've not actually pointed out

When that when the cost increases "naturally", which is pretty much when a person is recruited, I don't think the % needs to scale up, it's only when the cost "resets" that I think the scaling should be applied.

I honestly am not too fond of the "Great People's system" as it is anyway, it feels very messy and chaotic. But I do see your concerns.

I guess my whole thing is with the loss of great people points, it doesn't seem to be impactful because... points don't seem to be that much of a hassle to get in the first place.

 

[reddishrecue]

That's amazing.. I've never seen anything like it. I mean I have purchased GSs with faith and gotten them by default but tbh I haven't seen anything like this. Its probably more possible in larger maps too.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

That's amazing.. I've never seen anything like it. I mean I have purchased GSs with faith and gotten them by default but tbh I haven't seen anything like this. Its probably more possible in larger maps too.

I tend to typically play with 18 players, so yes, number of civs is pretty much makign this scenario more likely as more leaders have similiar outputs of great people points.

 

[reddishrecue]

I tend to typically play with 18 players, so yes, number of civs is pretty much makign this scenario more likely as more leaders have similiar outputs of great people points.

Wow, you must have a good computer for that.
It must be a lot harder for victories and wonders too since there's more competition.

 

[Leyrann]

Wow, you must have a good computer for that.
It must be a lot harder for victories and wonders too since there's more competition.

I imagine wonders are significantly harder, not sure about victories though. In my experience even Deity AI isn't a challenge when it comes to achieving victory before me.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I imagine wonders are significantly harder, not sure about victories though. In my experience even Deity AI isn't a challenge when it comes to achieving victory before me.

I play on lower difficulties, so it's manageable for me.

 

[Leyrann]

I play on lower difficulties, so it's manageable for me.

Then it definitely shouldn't be an issue.