Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Narz, Feb 3, 2007.
Narz, is there any evidence that vaccines somehow cause Autism?
You might feel differently if you were severely autistic.
You're clearly taking this personally. I'm not degrading autistics. The whole Son Rose program is focused on having the parents accept the child the way he is NO MATTER whether or not he changes in any way. If my son were deaf I would love him no matter what, but I would also want to try to find a way to cure him because hearing music (among other things) is a beautiful experience.
Who are "your people"? What do you mean by "my people"?
I'm not speaking down to you. Nor do I judge anyone autistic. I can see why you're taking things the way you are but I assure you I'm not a bigot.
It's a "Google Scholar" search, read some of the articles.
Ok, then I'm telling you I've met Raun, his parents and spent considerable time with them and I don't think they're making the whole thing up. They've also worked with a couple and their son who made considerable progress which was documented on the BBC.
They don't need stastics to prove that suceeded at least once.
Austism is a collection of symptoms.
Autism is like ADD or alcoholism. It only exists as symptoms. Without the symptoms you do not have the "disease" (and I wouldn't call any of those three a "disease" anyway, just behavior patterns).
No, but I post debunk linkies on #67
I already addressed that. I searched for ten minutes and was only able to find studies refuting the claim that the MMR vaccine caused autism. So, no, the evidence does not suggest, at this time, a link between at least that one vaccine and autism.
My People are autistics, your people are whatever nationality your from. If your so confident that Autism is a disease, lets see how it stacks up. It may turn out your the diseased one.
Thats not the only qualification for a disease, by your standard Genius is a disease, artistic talent is a disease, moral correctness is a disease etc.
I'm very familliar with the MMR theory, but its still never explained how its supposed to alter the physical structure of the brain, nor has it attempted to.
I don't care much about my ethnicity. And I agree with you that autism is not a disease. I've been labeled diseased in many ways over the years myself : ADD, ADHD, major depression (which I did suffer from but which I would not call a disease), bi-polar (mostly triggered by medication along with very stressful circumstances) and the amusingly named ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). I even had a doctor label me as mildly autistic myself once (because I was very quiet and didn't want to speak to him).
Are you paying attention? I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Than what is the need for a cure? And what is the problem with Vaccines causing autism?
Autism is a neurological disorder, or collection of disorders with the same symptoms, it is as yet not well understood and the underlying causes are not known. It is diagnosed by it's symptoms, but not defined by them.
Autistics can learn to change their behaviour so that they reduce the expression of their symptoms, but this requires conscious effort on their part and does not represent a cure anymore than sucking on some menthol sweets cures a cold.
If you don't like the word cure, use "maximizing potential" instead. If your son (if you had a son) only rocked back and forth and never looked at you wouldn't you want him to? Not to say he wouldn't love him if he didn't but wouldn't you want to help him break out of his shell?
Pay attention, I've already admited insufficient evidence.
But not lazy enough to make unsupported assertions about how it's not worth the risk, apparently.
Wikipedia has lots of articles ON pseudoscience and money-making frauds. That isn't an endorsement OF pseudoscience or fraudsters.
Uri Geller has a wiki page. Guess I should TAKE IT UP with the Randi Foundation?
Finally take the autism stuff elsewhere please. Let's try to stay on topic. Until Narz can show that autism is caused by vaccines - which he hasn't even come close to doing - autism has nothing to do with the topic.
I don't need to support my personal choices to you. You have yet to prove that the HPV vaccine is safe in the long term.
The Son Rise wiki article has a "Criticism" section but even the critics acknowledge their results are verifiable.
It's amazing how much rigorous research you demand I do but you're mighty quick to dismiss anything I post as pseudoscience and frauds without probably even clicking the link.
I admit readily when I post links from organizations that are questionably (but that may stuff have merit on some subjects).
I don't think that's reason to automatically dismiss any source I post with your 's and 's. Especially when it's valid.
Is anyone at all paying attention? I dropped the autisim and vaccine issue because I couldn't find sufficient proof. I. was. wrong. You may have your orgasm now.
You're only calling it a personal choice now that you've realized you can't actually prove that the risk outweighs the benefits.
Once you figured out that if the argument rested on actual numbers you would lose, you changed to calling it an emotional decision.
Just to remind you, here's what you said earlier:
Nice goalpost moving there. Well your personal choices are yours to make, but I have the right to call them stupid
If it's safe enough to pass clinical trials, it's safe enough for any reasonable person to agree that it's healthy.
You're not a reasonable person. You have three stumbling blocks: first, you're incredibly ignorant of actual science and statistics. Second, you take pseudoscience and pseudostatistics at face value and are incapable of critically judging source validity. Third, you express an emotional but baseless aversion to modern medicine.
Basically, one cannot expect to have a reasonable debate with you on the subject of vaccines for the above three reasons.
As a side question to ask.
Do you believe you(as a public) has the right to force Narz to take a vaccine?
If/when HPV becomes much rarer, yes.
All the other vacs on the US schedule, for more dangerous/contagious diseases should probably be mandated by law and subsidized.
And **** it, Narz, if you learn one thing from this thread despite your stubborn obtuseness, please for the love of God get your hep boosters.
That's my last comment in this trainwreck
The flu shot, should we mandate people get the flu shot?
WRONG!! You haven't even addressed the issue of vaccine risks despite me bringing it up numorous times. You ignore that issue in favor of trying to find a comment you can twist around and score some zingers with.
I don't care about winning or losing, I'm here to learn actually.
I didn't move the goalpost, I simply decided not to waste my day looking up statistics. Those two statements are in the same post IIRC.
As for what you think of my decisions, I'm not too concerned.
I completely and unequivocally disagree. Plenty of drugs and treatments once deemed safe are now deemed risky. Drugs kill people every day. Drugs like Ritalin can have long term consequences.
I feel the same about you.
Statistics don't make my life. A product can be safe for 99% of the population but that sure as **** doens't help if you're in the 1%.
You're wrong. On the other hand you will dismiss anything not first proven to you by others. Therefore you're incapable of making controversial or original decisions.
Wrong again (0 for 3). When I severely sprained both my arms I went to the hospital and even took a pain killer. However I knew better than to renew my painkiller perscription (even though it obviously worked as a bandaid type treatment) and instead dealt with the pain rather than trying to supress it (and potentially reinjuring myself). You seem to love the opportunity to put others into boxes so you can feel superior. Why do you figure that is?
And you still haven't dealt with the side effects issue (other than saying "well, it was deemed safe for most of the population therefore it must be safe for me, you and everyone". I imagine you have much less experience than me with drugs and probably have never seen anyone suffer from serious perscription drug side effects, suffer at the hands of your perfect "modern medicine" or seen anyone failed by it.
You claim logic but what you really have is faith. I don't share your faith.
It's striking you don't even care about (or want to see) what tests were suppsosedly done to prove the vaccines safety. Maybe if you'd had some real world experience with those who've been failed by the system you'd have a bit more objectivity and wouldn't trust your faith in short term statistical data (always assuming you'll fall within the majority, that the tests were done 100% honestly and ethically and that all side effects were faithfully recorded).
No, the flu shot is nortoriously ineffective (in my persona experience with myself and others). And no, it's an infringment on a person's most basic human rights.
I'd defend myself with physical force against anyone trying to force me to submit to a medical or surgical procedure against my will.
This needs to get posted in more arguments.
Why doesnt the dictionary have anecdotal as derived for anecdote?
Do Americans not have the word anecdotal?
Separate names with a comma.