Skaven development thread

[mrtn]

how about using the dwarf city graphics - after all, don't they occupy many older dwarf strongholds?

And all the rat citizens will have nice beards.

 

[egroen]

"The whole point is that Skavens need to be able to see the location of Warpstone from the start, as they were created by their contact with it."

Exactly. This will make for such unique game play as opposed to "just another tribe". Even the AI will play decently as the skaven as they usually beeline for resources anyways. It will be interesting to see a tribe so dependant on one resource.

 

[drzoidberg]

The whole point is that Skavens need to be able to see the location of Warpstone from the start, as they were created by their contact with it.

we can change the name from "warpstone forging" to "warpstone mutation". Why should they know how they've come into being initialy. Humans have been mutated by something a while back to make us intelligent, (ok, I know, but lets settle for more intelligent) and we still don't know why or how.

 

[CyberChrist]

we can change the name from "warpstone forging" to "warpstone mutation". Why should they know how they've come into being initialy. Humans have been mutated by something a while back to make us intelligent, (ok, I know, but lets settle for more intelligent) and we still don't know why or how.

I see no reason to introduce a new tech for the Skavens to handle this. The main reason Skavens should see Warpstone from the start (from a game perspective) is because all their units of any worth will ALL require Warpstone to make and without it they are pretty much screwed.

There is a big difference of Skavens being aware of the pressence of Warpstone and them being aware that Warpstorm is what made them what they are today. Don't forget that Warpstone mutated them because they among other things was eating stuff contaminated by Warpstorm and got addicted to it. Wouldn't you recognize the sight/smell/taste of your favourite snack?

Btw, this is fantasy - lets not start comparing it with reality

 

[LMR]

I have no problem with the skaven starting with meteoric iron, since it would give them a chance to grab some warpstone before so they are able to build the good units. it would be pretty boring, if the AI was skaven, to be continually attacked by weak clanrats and the like.

much more fun and challenging to have your troops decimated by a ratling gun, burnt to a crisp by a warpfire thrower, and then pounded into the ground by a rat ogre, eh?

 

[Mr. Do]

The AI playing as Skaven (or anyone, for that matter) knows exactly where to head for Warpstone anyway, regardless of whether they have MI or not

 

[CyberChrist]

The AI playing as Skaven (or anyone, for that matter) knows exactly where to head for Warpstone anyway, regardless of whether they have MI or not

They know the entire map in fact, but that doesn't prevent them from 'exploring' anyway. AI don't act on their omnipotent knowledge like a human would do if we had the same insight. I don't recall ever having seen an AI go directly for a resource it didn't have 'legal' access to yet - like making roads for colonies etc.

 

[Mr. Do]

Well, you can't have been looking very hard mate The AI will send settlers where it knows a resource is as a high priority even when it shouldn't know it.

 

[Guagle]

Yaeh the AI does it all the time, if you see a comp city in the middle of nowhere you know where to attack first don't you?

 

[CyberChrist]

Well, you can't have been looking very hard mate The AI will send settlers where it knows a resource is as a high priority even when it shouldn't know it.

Well, perhaps you could provide some hard evidence. I have seen essential resources that the AI didn't have tech to make use of yet being ignored totally by the AI despite that they didn't have that resource in their area already. By the AI ignoring the resource I mean, AI not making roads toward resource, AI not settling nearby resource and AI not even guarding the spot with units.

As for AI forming cities at odd locations then I see that all the time and in most cases there is not a shadow of resource nearby. I can only attribute the AI settling at odd locations near any 'unknown' resource to be completely coincidental - unless you can prove me wrong of course

 

[LMR]

changing the subject, how's the LH looking Kinboat?

 

[Mr. Do]

Well, perhaps you could provide some hard evidence. I have seen essential resources that the AI didn't have tech to make use of yet being ignored totally by the AI despite that they didn't have that resource in their area already. By the AI ignoring the resource I mean, AI not making roads toward resource, AI not settling nearby resource and AI not even guarding the spot with units.

The AI would not make roads towards a resource it doesn't have the tech to use yet, nor would it guard the area. But it absolutely does try to settle close to resources in preference to other locations. I can't prove this to you, but then I don't really care to either- if you are really interested, make a thread in the main civ 3 forum, and you'll get loads of people telling you the same as me, and maybe someone will even provide proof. But if I'm going to start messing with Civ 3, it'll be to play/ mod the WH mod rather than prove a point

 

[rhialto]

The skaven should have a unit or building that requires warpstone right from the start. Otherwise, even though it can see the warpstone, it wont be able to attach any importance to acquiring the stuff quickly, thus defeating teh main point of starting with that tech (getting aheadstart on acquiring their essential resource).

 

[Kinboat]

Well I haven't done much... Still no texture, not enough council members, no background, not the right lighting.

I'm going to try to have the council almost totally hidden in shadow, with only hints that there is anything there.

Very incomplete...

 

[CyberChrist]

The skaven should have a unit or building that requires warpstone right from the start. Otherwise, even though it can see the warpstone, it wont be able to attach any importance to acquiring the stuff quickly, thus defeating teh main point of starting with that tech (getting aheadstart on acquiring their essential resource).

Sounds like a good idea.

I have been thinking about the concept of Skaven tunnels and the discussion about using the Paradrop ability for Skavens also. If we assume that the Skaven make tunnels so massively due to them constantly searching for more of their treasured Warpstone then how about this?

Skaven Tunnel
Regular Improvement that allows instant travel to city for selected units (Telepad Flag on - see Cracked Civ3ConquestsEdit - v1.22 for further info)
Req. advance: Disease Immunity
Req. resource: Warpstone (not necessarily in city radius)
Req. government: Chaos

The Tunnel should also generate 1 Culture to ensure that it doesn't survive an enemy capturing a Skaven city (due to the way Teleport works that would be a bad thing for the conqueror - heh)

Together with the Paradrop ability this would make it possible for certain Skavens units(with Teleport flag on) to be able to appear and/or disappear close to their cities seemingly out of the blue. Fast units(Clan Eshin Assassins perhaps) might even be able to appear, attack and then disappear again . I suggest that only light foot(paw?) units should be able to do this - no Rat Ogres or Doomwheels popping out of nowhere

Although there is no range limit for Teleporting to buildings with the Telepad ability, they can only receive 1 unit pr. turn and do NOT work for linking trade.


EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't thinking straight. If Skavens need to make use of the Paradrop ability then the Tunnel will have to have the Allows Air Trade flag set also. Since this is major advantage I suggest the maintenace for Tunnels should be set to 2 or 3.

 

[rhialto]

Anyone composed a list of skaven buildings? So far we seem to have:

- skaven tunnels (allows rebasing for certain skaven units?)
- warpstone refinery (+shields, +pollution, requires warpstone) This should also be available to chaos dwarfs.

Also, I think one way to give character to the skaven clans would be to make each clan a tech. But that might dedicate too many tech slots to one race, so it might affect game balance.

Id like to see another race able to make effective use of teh 4th age in the mod. So far only empire and dwarfs get any real units in that age. Skaven seems like a logical addition. Perhaps someoen could also suggest a few additional techs too.

 

[LMR]

why would the tunnel require warpstone?

 

[LMR]

LH looks great so far, kinboat. really looking forward to the finished product. keep the previews coming

 

[drzoidberg]

Well I haven't done much... Still no texture, not enough council members, no background, not the right lighting.

I'm going to try to have the council almost totally hidden in shadow, with only hints that there is anything there.

Very incomplete...

So far it looks good. But I have one small request. On all Warhammer concept art the fingers on Skaven are more rat-like. They are long and thin with claws. This will also give a much more sinister look. On the preview they have a pair of very healthy and strong hands, not something I would expect from someone living in a sewer.

 

[CyberChrist]

why would the tunnel require warpstone?

Well, it was to encourage Skavens to seek out Warpstone asap, but I agree that it doesn't make much sense. A bad idea so just ignore the part about Tunnels requiring Warpstone.

I have been doing some more thinking - so I am afraid this is going to be another long post with a lot of suggestions.

...

New suggestion for Skaven start techs:
- Chaos
- Meteoric Iron
- Under-Empire (new Skaven only tech)


Suggestions for other new techs:

Warpstone Refining
Req. Adv.: Under-Empire and Magic
Allows: Clan Skryre (details further down)
This should be required for Skavens to advance to next age - and located at same spot as Monoliths and Vampirism in the tech overview.

Cult of the Horned Rat
Grants Immunity to Disease
Req. Adv.: Under-Empire and Religion
Allows: Clan Pestilens (details further down)
This should be required for Skavens to advance to next age - and located at same spot as Monasticism in the tech overview.

Scavenging
Makes an invisible bonus resource 'appear' on map. Resource is +1/+1/+1 and can exist on all land based and coastal tiles.
Req. Adv.: Under-Empire and Crop Rotation
Not required for age advancement. Located at the same spot as Deforestation in the tech overview.

...

Since the Skaven live mostly underground (and prefer it that way) that should be reflected by them being denied access to certain 'overlander' improvements. This means no clearing Forests, no Sawmills, no Windmills and no coastal improvements (they will be compensated for this loss of course).

To accomplish this they should not start with Wood Working and Harbor, Shipwright's Guild, Seafarer's Guild and Wind Mill should go obsolete with the Under-Empire tech as well as flagging both Tunnel and Harbor to "Replace All Imp. with this flag".

To reduce the effects of this loss I first suggest removing "requirement for age advancement" from Seafaring and the Wind Mill requirement for Engineer's Guild.

...

Following revised and new improvement suggestions will ALL have these requirements (unless otherwise specified) to make sure they are only available to the Skaven:
Req. Adv.: Under-Empire
Req. Gov.: Chaos
Obs. with: Wood Working

Tunnel
Regular Improvement with "Allows Air Trade" and "Act as General Telepad" flags. Doesn't generate culture and maintenance is -2gp.

Pillar of Commandments
Great Wonder that gives a Tunnel in all cities. Also with "Reduces Corruption" in city flag. Culture +2 and maintenance -5gp (Warpstone Tithe).
Req. Imp.: Palace
Req. Res.: Warpstone (not necessarily in city radius)

There has been a few people talking about how (and if) to include the various Skaven clans in one way or another, and I think I have found a good way to accomplish this and at the same time help compensate for the restrictions I have just suggested. There are 5 clans that I find worthy enough to be included and my suggestion is that they will all be included as small wonders that each act like a Forbidden Palace as well as having "Reduces Corruption" in city and "Resistant to Propaganda" flags - and 1 more benefit. They are as follows:

Clan Mors (Warrior Clan)
Produce a <insert appropriate unit>(Storm Vermin?) every 5 turns (or so).
Req. Imp.: Barracks
Req. Res.: Iron (must be in city radius)

Clan Skryre (Seer/Warlock Clan)
Science production in city is doubled
Req. Adv.: Warpstone Refining
Req. Imp.: Wizard's Guild
Req. Res.: Warpstone (must be in city radius)

Clan Pestilence (Monk/Priest Clan)
Allow healing in enemy territory
Req. Adv.: Cult of the Horned Rat
Req. Imp.: Temple
Req. Res.: Incense (must be in city radius)

Clan Eshin (Spy/Assassin Clan)
Gain any advances owned by 2 civs
Req. Imp.: The Underways
Req. Res.: Pipeweed and Wine (doesn't necessarily have to be in city radius)

Clan Moulder (Beastmaster Clan)
Produce a <insert appropriate unit> (Rat Ogre?) every 10 turns.
Req. Adv.: Creature Control
Req. Res.: Elephants (must be in city radius)


Even though a total of 5 Forbidden Palaces seems like a lot then don't forget that it would be to compensate for the loss of 25-50% shield increase - not counting loss of shields from water. Some playtesting might be required though - heh heh.


Phew, well that's it from me for now. I am sure I messed up or left out something important, rest assure I will be back to correct that later


Btw, as mentioned earlier then Skaven are not naturally navaly inclined, but they will nevertheless be needing some ships. I found a few that might prove usefull at this link