Skip religion on Deity?

[woodshadows]

For any deity players - do you tend to just skip religion completely, or do you manage to make some use out of it? I generally find getting a pantheon to be worth the minimal hammers/cost of an initial shrine, but after that even if I beeline and grab stonehenge and play a religious civ like celts/ethiopia etc, while I will get one of if not the first religion I still can not compete with the AI who seems to be able to produce a missionary every turn while it takes me many turns to get enough faith for a missionary myself. Lately I've stopped bothering with the religion thing altogether, just get my pantheon, sell my shrine(s) and take whatever religion the AI has. It would be nice if there were a way to ban foreign missionaries from entering one's territory if you don't have open borders. I know they have the attrition thing but it really isn't enough.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Depends, if I'm a civ with religious advantages (including siam and spain) I'll usually commit to one. If I'm on pangea and a way to get one presents itself (as it will about 1/2 the time by some means) I'll usually get one. Otherwise, if theres no obvious easy way or its tiny islands etc. I'll just get the pantheon, and occasionaly not even that. I'm rarely tempted to do wide and piety if that wasn't in the plan anyway.

Wouldn't sell the shrine, you can use it for a holy site, or to spread a new religion whose followers/pantheon you like. It could possibly be used for a religious building, or near the end for an extra great person or two.

 

[woodshadows]

i find getting a religion to not be too difficult, as i do it fairly consistently when playing byzantium, though i do play smaller maps generally. what i find challenging is making the religion competitive with other religions, even in my own cities. seems like even if i use all my faith generated to purchase missionaries i still can't fight off the huge pressure and missionaries that flood my own cities let alone trying to convert foreign cities. seems unfortunate that on deity religion is severely derailed as a game option.

 

[Sidor1982]

When playing deity as a non-religious civ I usually don't go for religion, unless:
1. I get some faith bonus right away (CS, ruins, wonder) or
2. I was able to found a kick ass pantheon, that will give me advantage throuout the whole game (like Goddes of the sea when I have like 5-6 fish resources around my capitol). Then religion is of highest importance (more important than wonders or expansion), as a foreign religion will permanently remove the pantheon bonus.
Of course when I play and during first 20 turns all good pantheons have been taken, then trying to go for religion just doesn't make sense. You will get one eventually at some point and later can choose from the beliefs AI's have adopted.

 

[gozpel]

The AI going before you too?

Like the scout that ignores the visibilty of a CS, just to run 3 turns to grab that ruin. But you got 30g to find that CS first. It doesn't happen if it was a religious CS, then their scouts have a run for the win.

Why does the AI-scout ignore your Capitol, they are close but not interested?

No, they don't give a about you, they want that ruin north of you. If they fail grabbing that, they go wayward in to any direction to get another ruin. Without even looking at my 1-town empire or any CS.

 

[woodshadows]

Sidor, playing as a religious civ, do you find the benefits of religion on Deity worth the effort, I imagine the only way to pull off a successful religious game would be to expand like crazy and fill your cities with temples and other religious buildings and hope you grab some powerful religious beliefs which facilitate better spread (though in so doing depriving yourself of a belief that would provide direct benefit). Just seems like not worth much, even under best circumstances with tithe in many cities, it's offset by paying for all those religious buildings. by the way, saw your videos on youtube, good stuff

 

[Sidor1982]

Sidor, playing as a religious civ, do you find the benefits of religion on Deity worth the effort, I imagine the only way to pull off a successful religious game would be to expand like crazy and fill your cities with temples and other religious buildings and hope you grab some powerful religious beliefs which facilitate better spread (though in so doing depriving yourself of a belief that would provide direct benefit). Just seems like not worth much, even under best circumstances with tithe in many cities, it's offset by paying for all those religious buildings. by the way, saw your videos on youtube, good stuff

There is one huge bonus from Religion in the late game - using it to purchase great people, who You can choose depending on the strategy. As religious civ You take a faith generating pantheon (like faith from deserts), then a faith generating beliefs (mosques and pagodas is my favorite combo as they additionally give happiness and culture). With 5 - 6 cities You can generate like 100 faith per turn in the late game. Then depending on the strategy You can spawn plenty of GS and GE (tech vict) GA (cultural, although here I would go 3 cities max) or GM (diplomatic). Also Tithe is my favorite founder belief, but the one giving culture from religion in foreign cities is also an excellent option (especially when going cultural)

 

[Crafty Bison]

In terms of what goes on after founding a religion, it's not so tough. Depends on what you were planning. If it's just to cover your cities it's no problem, but if you wanted to spread it worldwide and get pagodas in all 10 cities then it's gonna be a lot tougher. Couple of inquisitors and the odd missionary/GP are easily enough to safeguard your land if you downgrade your expectations of what a religion can do for you, just make sure you don't sell off the buildings after your first GP. That or one of the two pressure enhancers. If you want religious dominance straight off then yeah, it takes more investemnt, and if you care that much about it then you should probably be taking a religious civ.

In terms of is it worth it?, can be, as said I rarely go by the way of mass temple spam + piety. If you're stretching your empire for uluru or paying a religious CS base rates or you sacrificed your pantheon then there is a balance point, but usually the AI doesn't take all of the ones I want and it's usually profitable.

edit on reading Sidor's post: Do you find world church best for going cultural? In a cultural vc you're tall so religion is not only tougher to get but also much tougher to spread, especially early. I usually consider world church if I'm going wide on another vc but needed the culture to e.g. fly through rationalism with say mayans, though admit while you'd get more culture (even though you've got more home cities), you'd need more for each policy. Going tall it just seems too tough to make the spread work unless you're say Byzantium with both pressure enhancers. Have you had success with it going tall? With who? How did you make the spread work? I can't really think beyond a 3-4 city ethiopia at the moment.

 

[woodshadows]

There is one huge bonus from Religion in the late game - using it to purchase great people, who You can choose depending on the strategy. As religious civ You take a faith generating pantheon (like faith from deserts), then a faith generating beliefs (mosques and pagodas is my favorite combo as they additionally give happiness and culture). With 5 - 6 cities You can generate like 100 faith per turn in the late game. Then depending on the strategy You can spawn plenty of GS and GE (tech vict) GA (cultural, although here I would go 3 cities max) or GM (diplomatic). Also Tithe is my favorite founder belief, but the one giving culture from religion in foreign cities is also an excellent option (especially when going cultural)

ah, that's smart, i hadn't thought of harnessing the power of pagodas or mosques, or in focusing more on the great people angle of things, ill have to try that next game.

 

[woodshadows]

edit on reading Sidor's post: Do you find world church best for going cultural? In a cultural vc you're tall so religion is not only tougher to get but also much tougher to spread, especially early. I usually consider world church if I'm going wide on another vc but needed the culture to e.g. fly through rationalism with say mayans, though admit while you'd get more culture (even though you've got more home cities), you'd need more for each policy. Going tall it just seems too tough to make the spread work unless you're say Byzantium with both pressure enhancers. Have you had success with it going tall? With who? How did you make the spread work? I can't really think beyond a 3-4 city ethiopia at the moment.

that's probably why i find it hard to be competitive with religion, i tend to go relatively tall, with four cities or so, i find on deity if i try to expand beyond that my borders are stretched too far and production/income is delayed too long in the early game to afford to have a large military to defend multiple borders against highly aggressive ai's - excepting lucky geography.

 

[Moriarte]

Shrine is cheap, so i wouldn't skip pantheon at least. But in a situation where you obviously can't found and sustain religion (but can found a pantheon) some temporary perks can be good.

You have until turn 100 when massive conversions start, so might as well use +2 science per trade route or some happyness/culture enhancers.

 

[Priah77]

Really depends on the game, but I pretty frequently skip even a pantheon altogether. In nearly every game Ill eventually have some faith generation though, if from captured cities or religion cs'. Remember, you can still purchase great scientists and great engineers even if you didnt found your own religion.

The primary benefit of having your own religion is the founder belief (tithe usually) and getting to pick your own bonus. If a nearby civ has a great bonus for you... its probably not worth it at all to found your own. Tithe is going to bring in a pretty minimal amount of gold at deity in most situations.

Key to deity is to play the map and adapt to whats going on; only go in with very vague plans. This is even more so true in gods and kings where so much of my immediate decisions are affected by CS quests.

 

[Pook]

I do not skip religion on deity- I prioritize it. I search for natural wonders with faith bonuses, as well as religious city-states. If I haven't found either by about turn 20, I'll put a priority on building Stonehenge. Somehow, I will find a way to found a religion on deity.

 

[slapshot2119]

Maybe it's just semantics, but do you really mean "skip" religion entirely? To me, that means not partaking in belief advantages at all.
I think you mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, not bother "founding" a religion. I find that on emperor (and presumably above), you're not going to be able to handpick the belief structure of a religion(unless you're a very religion-centered civ with map conditions favoring religion), and the cost:benefit is often too high to bother founding a religion. In these cases, though, I don't just throw religion out the window for the game. Rather, I (obsessively) check the religion screen to see what beliefs are associated with what religion. When I find the AI-founded religion that has the belief structure that best suits my goals, I do what I can to befriend that civ and wait for them to spread it to one of my cities. Then build a great prophet and spread that religion to the majority of my cities, giving me those belief benefits and strengthening diplomatic relations with the founding civ.

 

[woodshadows]

Really depends on the game, but I pretty frequently skip even a pantheon altogether. In nearly every game Ill eventually have some faith generation though, if from captured cities or religion cs'. Remember, you can still purchase great scientists and great engineers even if you didnt found your own religion.

The primary benefit of having your own religion is the founder belief (tithe usually) and getting to pick your own bonus. If a nearby civ has a great bonus for you... its probably not worth it at all to found your own. Tithe is going to bring in a pretty minimal amount of gold at deity in most situations.

that's a good point, essentially by skipping religion in actuality all one is losing out on is the founder belief.. generally tithe, so some extra gold.. and losing out on choice of pantheon/other beliefs. i think i'll just continue skipping religion in the future, too much effort and diverting production into temples or money towards religious cs's rather than others just doesn't seem worth it. getting a pantheon though seems okay, one shrine manages to grab one.. eventually.

 

[woodshadows]

Maybe it's just semantics, but do you really mean "skip" religion entirely? To me, that means not partaking in belief advantages at all.
I think you mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, not bother "founding" a religion. I find that on emperor (and presumably above), you're not going to be able to handpick the belief structure of a religion(unless you're a very religion-centered civ with map conditions favoring religion), and the cost:benefit is often too high to bother founding a religion. In these cases, though, I don't just throw religion out the window for the game. Rather, I (obsessively) check the religion screen to see what beliefs are associated with what religion. When I find the AI-founded religion that has the belief structure that best suits my goals, I do what I can to befriend that civ and wait for them to spread it to one of my cities. Then build a great prophet and spread that religion to the majority of my cities, giving me those belief benefits and strengthening diplomatic relations with the founding civ.

yes, i mean not bother founding my own, since having it spread to oneself by other civs is difficult if not impossible to avoid, though im sure there are some religiously atheist players out there who make the attempt

 

[slapshot2119]

that's a good point, essentially by skipping religion in actuality all one is losing out on is the founder belief.. generally tithe, so some extra gold.. and losing out on choice of pantheon/other beliefs. i think i'll just continue skipping religion in the future, too much effort and diverting production into temples or money towards religious cs's rather than others just doesn't seem worth it. getting a pantheon though seems okay, one shrine manages to grab one.. eventually.

If one were to convert the majority of their own cities to a religion (founded by AI)and then capture the holy city, would they be granted the founder belief?

 

[Browd]

Only the founder gets the founder belief (except in the Into the Renaissance scenario, which is a special situation). So, conquering the founder means no one gets those benefits.

 

[slapshot2119]

Only the founder gets the founder belief (except in the Into the Renaissance scenario, which is a special situation). So, conquering the founder means no one gets those benefits.

then, as far as game mechanics go, what's special about the holy city? IN Civ4, the holy city could construct a shrine and receive tons of extra gold which was then multiplied by that particular city's gold multiplier, making it the ideal spot for Wall Street. In Civ 5, there doesn't seem to be any specific advantage to a holy city, it's just where you happened to plunk down a Great Prophet and that's where Great Prophets spawn. Am I missing something, or is a holy city just a city that gets a bunch of free converted citizens?

On a similar note, if I'm going to build/have built Great Mosque, which increases the amount of spread actions a missionary can make, I'll move the Great Prophet from the capital to that city, often delaying the founding for 3-4 turns. Seems to make sense, but is there any point in doing this?

Lastly, I've noticed that the AI tends to use Great Prophets to convert my holy city first. Is there any additional disadvantage to having a holy city that has been converted as opposed to a non-holy city?

Apologies to the OP for getting a little off topic, just relevant questions from tangential thoughts...

 

[Lites]

I will almost always go for early religion and try to grab Tithe if I can. If you can get that to spread quickly, the amount of extra GPT more then makes up for it in the long run...