Skirmishers reconsidered

[theimmortal1]

in MP skirmishers are awesome. Probably the best UU in the game.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

in MP skirmishers are awesome. Probably the best UU in the game.

Would that be because the other human players are axe rushing, too? A skirmisher defends really well against axes, considering how cheap it is.

I've also heard that they shut off barbarians in many MP games to minimize the unbalanced impact of Barbarians. Could that be a reason? I want to eventually try MP, so I'm quite interested in the reason for the opinion.

 

[Zombie69]

If you have an archer with two of those promotions, you'll need 5 more EP to gain a third, then another 7 to gain the fourth.

I said two free promotions, like the free combat promotion for aggressive leaders, and the free march promotion for navy SEALs.

Also, there's MP. Some UUs that are handy in single-player are totally useless in MP (Quechua, your phone is ringing). On the other hand, ISTM the Skirmisher should do OK there.

Agreed with that. Like i said, skirmishers are useless in single player but obviously very good in multiplayer. In multiplayer, you'll probably never even get to use them, because being Mali and having them, nobody will want to attack you. That's a good thing.

If taking cities is the metric, it's hard to disagree. The skirmisher is briefly competitive in early-early war. Because Archery is cheaper than BW, a Malinese player can have 2-3 Skirmishers out there awfully quick. But after the first 40 turns or so, yeah, axes are just hugely better.

I'd still rather have chariots than skirmishers. Same price, twice the move, and base 20% retreat. And i'd rather beeline for axemen than chariots. Bronze working is invaluable not only for copper and axemen, but for chop rushing and pop rushing. No matter what unit you intend to use, you should always go for bronze working first because that's the best way to produce an army quickly. And once you have bronze working, neither chariot nor skirmisher (neither of which you've even researched yet) is worth making.

Here I disagree. Chariots don't get defensive bonuses. This is why I rate the skirmisher ahead of the chariot as a barb killer. They both can kill weaker barb units easily. The chariot is faster and can get there quicker, the skirmisher will have a slightly better kill chance because of the first strike, it's about a wash. But against barb axes, the skirmisher's ability to rope-a-dope lifts it well above the chariot.

Chariots won't need defensive bonuses since they'll be attacking. There, their base 20% retreat could come in handy. The fact that they're attacking will mean more XP, and chariots also have better promotions available than skirmishers. As for fighting barb axemen, you should have axemen of your own by then anyway.

Axemen are better still, as you point out. But skirmishers are cheaper, and can effectively keep barbs off your back while your axes are off kicking butt.

Skirmishers aren't cheap when you take into account the price of the useless dead end tech that is required to make them. Axemen are cheaper because even if you don't intend to make them, you still need bronze working for chop rushing and pop rushing anyway.

 

[galahadba]

Well to say that you will be always on the ofensive in sigle player is not true.... single player have MANY possible configurations that make very diferents kind of games... i like for example to play 18 civs/Huge Map/Marathon with dificult level Immortal/Deity... and you got to be on defensive and this is not uncommon... as you have many civs on the same continent and is much likelly to be "weak" compared to them as they have facilities on suport, and will be a good target...

You add it to the fact that is very likely to begin without cooper, the marathon/huge map makes goes to iron a long process and unless you restart the game you WILL have to go for archer before it, as the computar probably will declare war on you before you get an iron source, and have the barbarians too of course... not to say that even with the very good conditions you have to stop you expansion because of the number os cities and the cost of it... and in marathon will take much time before you have all the techs you need to continue expanding... meanwhile you WILL be on defensive, trying to build infra for support and maybe expand a little more withou CS...

Well this is the only configuration i play, but i belive that are others configs that put you on defensive sometimes... what makes the unit very good... not to say that on extreme situations a unit with att 4 is not so bad atacker is you choose a target without resource...

 

[Zombie69]

You're getting attacked because you go for iron. Instead, steal a worker, then attack with pop rushed and chop rushed axemen. You'll see that you won't need defense then. The settings you describe are actually the perfect example of a game where skirmishers are worse than useless.

 

[galahadba]

Well i edited the post... i was trying to say cooper, not iron... and as i said even if you get the very good conditions, you will be on defensive soon , as yopu have to stop expanding, and you at that time you will get only one (max 2) disabled civs by your expantion, you will get other 16 civs to defend (not all of then on your continent of course unlless you go for panagea) and the computer know how to be opportunist... and good defensive and cheaper unit is all you want at that time...

and the about the worker... i always try to stell one with my first warrior, but in my last games the computer get allways it defended by archers... i'm getting no luck with it lol


well as i say you will get much situations where it is very much needed..

 

[futurehermit]

Bronze working is invaluable not only for copper and axemen, but for chop rushing and pop rushing. No matter what unit you intend to use, you should always go for bronze working first because that's the best way to produce an army quickly. And once you have bronze working, neither chariot nor skirmisher (neither of which you've even researched yet) is worth making.

this is the most important thing people need to learn in order to improve their game.

You're getting attacked because you go for iron. Instead, steal a worker, then attack with pop rushed and chop rushed axemen. You'll see that you won't need defense then. The settings you describe are actually the perfect example of a game where skirmishers are worse than useless.

his example involved not having copper to start. kinda hard to axerush without copper EDIT: nvm, he said he editted his post.

 

[theimmortal1]

Would that be because the other human players are axe rushing, too? A skirmisher defends really well against axes, considering how cheap it is.

I've also heard that they shut off barbarians in many MP games to minimize the unbalanced impact of Barbarians. Could that be a reason? I want to eventually try MP, so I'm quite interested in the reason for the opinion.

Well I am talking about 1v1 or team games. Not FFAs.

In those situations skirmishers are the best UU in the game. Make a few and set up shop outside someones capital. He won't ever be able to get a worker out or a settler.

Obviously I'd rather have axes than skirmishers, but skirmishers come much earlier in the game even if you research BW first. You can easily get a couple skirmishers to an enemy capital before he has hooked up any metal.

 

[Wodan]

No matter what unit you intend to use, you should always go for bronze working first because that's the best way to produce an army quickly.

Can we talk about the premise? i.e., WHY should one always produce an army quickly?

I can think of many games/situations where I don't need or desire to produce an army right off the bat. In those situations I'd much rather go for cottages earlier or something.

And that, I think, is the best value of all for the Skirmisher. It lets you play as Mali, which is Spiritual/Financial, a hugely powerful combo.

Myself, I think the designers intentionally designed UUs and the civ Traits together. Spiritual/Financial? Sure, give me a defensive early UU, and thanks.

Wodan

 

[Zombie69]

Maybe at lower levels, but at high levels, the AI will be all over you and you'll be lucky to get up to more than 2 cities before all the good spots are taken. And at high levels, you just can't compete with the AIs' bonuses, financial or not, spiritual or not. That's why you need an early war.

 

[Wodan]

Maybe at lower levels, but at high levels, the AI will be all over you and you'll be lucky to get up to more than 2 cities before all the good spots are taken. And at high levels, you just can't compete with the AIs' bonuses, financial or not, spiritual or not. That's why you need an early war.

Okay, so we may not desire to fight an early war:
--at lower levels

I think I'd add:
--on some maps (I'll grant that it will take at least a few turns exploring before you know if this is the case); e.g., if you have a good sized continent all to yourself, if you have a good bottleneck you can send your 1st settler to hem in a large landmass for yourself and then backfill at leisure, if you're on archipelago/islands because the AI won't beeline for sailing and you have time to spread, etc. All these reasons are regardless of skill level, I think.

Any other reasons anyone can think of?

Wodan

 

[Zombie69]

Like you said, it will take some turns of explorig before knowing that this is your situation. By then, bronze working will be done researching or at least well on its way. Once you've got bronze, you don't need archery anymore, offense or not. No need to spend beakers to research a dead end tech that gives you access to weaker units than those you already have.

 

[Wodan]

Like you said, it will take some turns of explorig before knowing that this is your situation. By then, bronze working will be done researching or at least well on its way. Once you've got bronze, you don't need archery anymore, offense or not. No need to spend beakers to research a dead end tech that gives you access to weaker units than those you already have.

I agree. Wasn't advocating researching archery, simply questioning the assertion that an early war is a Must.

Wodan

 

[malekithe]

The only time I'd research Archery...

Initial exploration reveals no available copper and no nearby opponents and there are no sheep, pigs, or cow, so Animal Husbandry isn't terribly attractive. Then, and only then, I might get archery. It's fairly rare though. As such, skirmishers aren't really my cup of tea. As Zombie said, I'd rather have a chariot or an axeman any day.

One thing that's hasn't been mentioned about chariots... since you take an offensive stance using them against barbs, they'll be promoted faster; often gaining 5-6 xp from only 2 fights. Compared to that, skirmishers, fortified on their hills, level far too slowly; gaining just 1 xp per combat. And then there's the war chariot... man I love war chariots... mobile, retreating axemen... (sort of). If only there were a unique axeman replacement... just think of the possibilities...

 

[Zombie69]

I agree. Wasn't advocating researching archery, simply questioning the assertion that an early war is a Must.

Then re-read the sentence you originally quoted from me. In other words, it says :
Even if you intend to produce skirmishers (no specific intent given here, could even be for defense), you're still better off researching bronze working first, so that you can produce them faster using pop rushing and chop rushing.

But assuming for a moment that you quoted something else, yes i do believe that unless proven otherwise further down into the game (alone on an island being an obvious case of proven otherwise), early war is always the best way to go. Therefore, bronze working first is the best way to go. And after you've got bronze working, archery becomes useless, even with skirmishers.

Is there something in the above paragraph you don't agree with?

 

[Zombie69]

One thing that's hasn't been mentioned about chariots... since you take an offensive stance using them against barbs, they'll be promoted faster; often gaining 5-6 xp from only 2 fights.

Hasn't been mentioned? Are you sure?

Chariots won't need defensive bonuses since they'll be attacking. There, their base 20% retreat could come in handy. The fact that they're attacking will mean more XP, and chariots also have better promotions available than skirmishers.

 

[Zombie69]

If only there were a unique axeman replacement... just think of the possibilities...

That would be gross. To not be completely overpowered, it would have to be a very mild improvement, like samurais that replace macemen by only giving a first strike or two.

 

[malekithe]

Hasn't been mentioned? Are you sure?

I stand corrected.

 

[Zombie69]

Hey, correcting you is a pleasure. It's not often i get the chance!