Slavery and cottages

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by yanner39, May 8, 2010.

  1. yanner39

    yanner39 Emperor

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    I'm terrible at whipping and this is a strategy I know I don't use nearly enough. Therefore I know that I probably won't be able to compete in higher levels.

    Now I use cottages to fund my economy. So obviously I try and get my cottages going very early in order for them to grow. I think the main reason I don't whip nearly enough is because I don't want the cottages to stop growing. In my mind I can justify sacrificing a pop point working a mine because I figure I get the hammers the mine would have generated sooner.

    How much is it worth to sacrifice "working turns" of a cottage/hamelet, etc to get hammers? I kno why thinking is probably flawed. Eventually withcertain techs and civis, the cottages will grow faster.

    Generally, should I simply whip basic infra (granary, library, forge, courthouse) in all my cities AND THEN let my cottages grow? Currently it takes for ever to grow buildings in commerce cities because I generally don't want to whip there.

    When is it a good idea not to whip anymore? How about whipping unis? I've read that some do and some don't.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    I don't have any problem whipping the population off a cottage, because in general I won't miss that many turns of working it and will generate a whole lot of hammers in exchange. That's also in the context where I don't rely on cottages as much in my recent games, in favor of other improvements to build population or production by the medieval era. Trade routes and putting cities on wealth/research seem to actually work better except for my capital, or when playing a financial leader.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Generally just whip key infra (border pop if needed, granary, MAYBE courthouse on high levels and distance), then let them grow.

    If you have enough commerce such that a whip gives you more total output right away, do that, but generally save whips for production cities or a stunt like mass whips in other cities ---->ASAP oxford in capitol.
     
  4. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    Growing cottages is more important than building gold and science improvements.
     
  5. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    Forge? How many hammers do you have in this cottage city?
     
  6. Edzako

    Edzako Warlord

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    That depends on city. In late game you can have towns with 3 hammers. But I mostly whip forges in commerce cities, if I need additional happiness, as gold/silver/gems are pretty common. +1:yuck: sucks though.
     
  7. yanner39

    yanner39 Emperor

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    That was my thought as well. Not so much for the hammer boost but for the happyness. Based on other threads here, I always thought the forge was a basic building.
     
  8. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    My rules of thumb would be for a cottage city always whip for the following (unless maybe you can get through chopping):

    - Granaries - you will work more cottages if you are bigger faster right?
    - Monument or another culture source to expand the big fat cross
    - Buildings that would allow you to grow your happy cap for the city and therefore work more cottages - eg a forge if you have gold + gems, or a market if you have resources that will add happiness, barracks if you are or will be in Nationalism etc. Generally I would be whipping these once I grew into unhappiness.
    - Courthouse for a city that has a high gold cost per turn - eg 10+.
    - Library and University will be whipped out in a city that will need to be one of the cities that will get Universities for Oxford. Probably this would not be in a cottage city without good food specials.
    - Banks will be whipped out later in cottage cities with good food for wall street.
    - Units will be whipped out whenever I need them for war! Growing cottages can wait at these times.
    - Grocers and Harbours will both sometimes be worth whipping for health if this is holding up growth - and they will boost income also.

    For almost anything else it can wait on growing the cottages.
     
  9. Nkat

    Nkat Monarch

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    I like to Whip early in the game when my City has reached its Happy Cap. Usually your early City Populations will be small and therefore will grow back quickly. This makes an excellent Production boost as just hitting Avoid Growth and waiting for the next Happiness Point is providing you with nothing.

    Emergency Whipping is great, if not unavoidable at times.

    When I Rapidly Expanded in my last game, I crashed the Economy. Once I got back up I built a Settler and Settled another city. This City was late to the game so Whipping a 30 Turn Monument for 1 Population and then re-growing that back in a couple of turns got the City up to speed quite quickly.

    You talk about Whipping off Cottages. I just go by if I need them at the moment. You will eventually work them up throughout the game so I wouldn't make a huge deal about it. If something catastrophic happens and you need emergency funding, at least you will have Cottages built and ready to be worked.
     
  10. dirtyparrot

    dirtyparrot Upholding Brannigan's Law

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    The more food a city has access to, the more liberal you can be with the whip.
     
  11. DampRain

    DampRain Prince

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    Extra happiness from forge. Say is +1.
    Assume not industrious. You want forge asap so 8 pop whip.
    Food to grow back is 62 food. If you had a 4 food tile nearby, you have total 4 food (ignore health) surplus. It takes 15 turns to grow back the pop you lost. Assuming you have grassland cottages.

    That is about 30 turns of cottage growth lost. Also 30 turns of generating commerce from said cottages. As well as 15 turns of working a food tile instead of a cottage. Given those cottages should have been developed to at least 2 commerce (assumption), thats 90 commerce.
    The new cottage you can work thanks to happiness, first needs a pop, taking about 4.5 turns to grow the pop, said pop, also has maintenance, costing lets say 0.5 commerce. So for 10 turns, generates 0.5 commerce. At 10 turns 5 commerce. 85 commerce left. After 10 turns generate at 1.5 commerce (minus maintenance). So another 20 turns, 55 commerce left generate 2.5 a turn. Another 22 turns.

    End total 4.5+10+20+22 = 56.5 turns.
    56.5 turns after whipping your forge you are finally getting a profit.
    This ignores (health of higher pop), the 30 turns of cottage growing and the cost of inflation (more commerce earlier is more valuable than later). As a guess, it could be 80 turns before you really start getting a profit.

    By no means a 100% number analysis. I just wanted to do it for the exercise. Hope it helps. If mistake, correct me.
     
  12. flashog

    flashog Chieftain

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    Whipping is arguably more powerful if you don't rely on cottages for commerce. Such as SE and hybrid economies. Like someone said, the more food you have available, the more you can crack the whip. If you run cottage cities with little or no food resources and minimal amount of farms, whipping can take a great toll of your economy.
    To give an example, I would never whip in a city with, say 2 gold mines, if whipping means that I won't be able to work those mines for 20+ turns. Instead, focus on growing your city big, even beyond your happy cap, and wait until you're mostly whipping unhappy citizens, since sacrificing them doesn't take anything away from you.
     

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