Slavery

[sukha]

I copied this thread from ROM Strategy Forums because it seems like no one is ever present there.

I am using ROM+AND

I wonder if someone would actually help me understand if its better to use Slavery or Barter, I did some tests on a slave built economy, its mostly all cotages.
Without slavery I loose a good chunk of income, but that +50% to growth really hurts throughout the game.
But then I somewhat negate the growth by using Caste at the same time since my cities rarely go over 3 population I dont need as many

I am going to restart the same game from the beginning without slavery and see for myself how it goes.

If anyone got any tips about civics for a Warmonger, would really appreciate.


EDIT: I played the same starting position 4 times, so far I've come to such conclusions. It seems like slavery and caste are made to be used at the same time. On Farm+Mines economy both of them boost their output so its natural to use them together. Second option is to use only slavery, but build a cottage economy. I guess it depends on the place you start, if you cannot get any spots for farms early because its all wood or no fresh water then slavery+cottages otherwise slavery+caste is better.... Though cottage will always bring insane Commerce
I also tried using neither which was not very fruitful.

Then another thing comes into play, Monarchy I cant entirely get a grip on how to counter its , either Divine Cult with Monument +2 or Barracks +2

 

[Killtech]

slavery gives +1 per farm. the additional growth penalty can be compensated by that additional food. the percantege bonus on production only helps for cities that have enough base production for the +10% to make an effect.

putting it short: it's a civic if your towns are somewhat grown and developed. so just don't switch too early. that the core problem the AI has with this civic. it switches far too early to slavery when it has still size 1 towns thus it cripples its empire. there should be some condition tags for the civics xml which define when AI should consider a civic. it'll be hard to calculate that form the pure benefits/penalties of a civic alone.

@Afforess: (if by chance you looked into this thread)
can you think of something like that? it's not game breaking right now but the civic changes of AI are sometimes stupid. it would be good if the civic designers have some control on how AI handles the civic without rewriting the SDK. it would improve AI on the longer run.

 

[sukha]

slavery gives +1 per farm. the additional growth penalty can be compensated by that additional food. the percantege bonus on production only helps for cities that have enough base production for the +10% to make an effect.

putting it short: it's a civic if your towns are somewhat grown and developed. so just don't switch too early. that the core problem the AI has with this civic. it switches far too early to slavery when it has still size 1 towns thus it cripples its empire. there should be some condition tags for the civics xml which define when AI should consider a civic. it'll be hard to calculate that form the pure benefits/penalties of a civic alone.

Its really hard to tell, right now I kind of feel like turning it on right when I start making my first settler. Since it will make him build faster, but then my next city will have growth problems.
This thing makes my head hurt.

When should I start building my first settler btw? lvl2? lvl3?

 

[Killtech]

When should I start building my first settler btw? lvl2? lvl3?

depends. size 2 if you have a good production but not high growth. size 3 otherwise.

and switching to slavery before you have enough mines & farms improvements will not pay off.

 

[sukha]

depends. size 2 if you have a good production but not high growth. size 3 otherwise.

and switching to slavery before you have enough mines & farms improvements will not pay off.

So should I switch to slavery at around 1capital +2 expansions at lvl2? I figgured you need atleast lvl 2 to get that 10% to either production or food...
God I just feel like abandoning this civic and go straight for Caste then Monarchy or vice versa.

 

[Killtech]

it's a rather a nice classic age civic especially because of the slave market. not worth to rush for it though. capital + 2 expansions on size 2 could work provided they have enough food income. but i find it hard to be more specific as my strategy differs form yours as i'm no warmonger - i'm unsure what improvement you will have in these cities. in this period size 2 expansions can hardly lose any production for military or it will have an impact on their development.

 

[sukha]

it's a rather a nice classic age civic especially because of the slave market. not worth to rush for it though. capital + 2 expansions on size 2 could work provided they have enough food income. but i find it hard to be more specific as my strategy differs form yours as i'm no warmonger - i'm unsure what improvement you will have in these cities. in this period size 2 expansions can hardly lose any production for military or it will have an impact on their development.

This is verry counter inituitive, so what youre saying I should basically build a cottage economy then swap to farms then go slavery?

 

[Killtech]

cottage yields change frequently through version... i think i'm somewhat outdated on cottage strategies i guess. as for farms + slavery + caste: it's still the best option how to grow your cities to max size asap. for this purpose i have quite some farms. but my economy is always mixed. never too focused on one improvement type.

 

[sukha]

cottage yields change frequently through version... i think i'm somewhat outdated on cottage strategies i guess. as for farms + slavery + caste: it's still the best option how to grow your cities to max size asap. for this purpose i have quite some farms. but my economy is always mixed. never too focused on one improvement type.

In the beginning cottages give +1 food, same as Farm without Slavery or Caste. So there is no point in building farms really except in the verry beginning before cottages because Pottery is expensive tech.
And cottages turn to +1hammer +1coin in 30 turns

 

[Killtech]

ah right and they are buildable on forest right now. still the core source for food are the farms in later ages so you will need them anyway. cottages are very good if your cities have grown to a size to work sufficient tiles. but as long as they are small each single food is important... if you will need to replace cottages by farms depends somewhat on how you play.

 

[Mazzini]

If you're going to be using a lot of improvements that are boosted by it, slavery is good as soon as you can get it. I had a recent game where I had good land for farms/mines, but not really cottages. I was also fortunate enough to pop slavery from a hut on turn 1. I ran a test, and I was able to get up and running (i.e. size 3, improved resources, 2 settlers produced) a bit quicker with slavery. Even if you aren't working tiles boosted by it, slavery helps by letting you build the improvements faster and (often overlooked) you train workers 100% faster, so that crucial first improved tile will actually be worked sooner in slavery than out of it, and the food boost from farms tends to neutralize the growth penalty. Slavery + caste is just beastly if you don't care about GP's in the early game.

 

[sukha]

If you're going to be using a lot of improvements that are boosted by it, slavery is good as soon as you can get it. I had a recent game where I had good land for farms/mines, but not really cottages. I was also fortunate enough to pop slavery from a hut on turn 1. I ran a test, and I was able to get up and running (i.e. size 3, improved resources, 2 settlers produced) a bit quicker with slavery. Even if you aren't working tiles boosted by it, slavery helps by letting you build the improvements faster and (often overlooked) you train workers 100% faster, so that crucial first improved tile will actually be worked sooner in slavery than out of it, and the food boost from farms tends to neutralize the growth penalty. Slavery + caste is just beastly if you don't care about GP's in the early game.

I ran tons of tests today on all starting civics, tech paths, to see whats the best, fastest, etc.
I came to conclusion, its all about where you start and what you start with. You are correct, if you have lots of farming material like Flood plains or Potatoes/Rice then slavery becomes a very good rushing tech.
But the most universal, with "don't hope for luck play as if its the worst case scenario" attitude cottage rush is the best you can do. Pottery rush gives best times on a settler build, and science.
Also for a warmonger best civics are free unit upkeep, nothing can beat the savings from unit upkeep. Also Monarchy seems like a nice tech to rush for roads and what not, but actually not a good cvic to use as soon as you get it.

This my personal opinion which I am totally unsure of lol:
For a warmonger it seems like the best is to use almost all crazy civics together: Monarchy, Caste, Slavery, Divine Cult, Charity, Conscription.
As long as I keep my cities at lvl 3 this works wonders as I build army in like 3 turns or so.
But I cannot really tell how compared to like lvl5 cities would this look like? And how fast can you even get a lvl 5 city?