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Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Ideas are welcome but I started this thread so I would not loose this link.

    OK, reopening this thread, for the slaves etc discussion which I hope to summarize here and give an idea as to what I am intending.

    Update end March 2013 - Current status
    Capturing
    1) When you attack and kill an enemy military unit there is a small chance based on civics (yours and theirs) that the unit will surrender to you rather than being killed. This is a Captive - Military. Capture working but probability of success needs adjusting. need to consider mercenary units defecting to you with their weapons and training in tack. Probably need to give them a disloyal promotion and use that in future battles increasing the chance they defect.

    2) When you sack a city
    a) you will get a number of Captive - Civilian. The idea of refugees needs adding. A maximum of 50% of the population is turned into captives or refugees. A size 1 city has a 50% chance of producing a captive.

    b) If they had settled slaves in the city most will join you as Captive - Freed Slaves.

    c) You will also be informed of any other specialists that were in the city and that they were killed. ​

    Using captives
    Captive - Military or Captive - Neanderthal
    • Upgrade to worker or military unit (costs a lot) - still need to consider promotions and XP of original unit
    • fast build an improvement or route using up unit - displayed text required
    • Sell in city - to be done
    • Join city as slave specialist - needs to be restricted to Slavery civic or specialist needs returns need to be changed due to civics
    • Fast build building
    • Sacrifice for happiness or culture
    • Eat or Free (both add food since food is how part populations are represented).
    Captive - Civilian
    • Upgrade to settler or above (not tribe) huge cost
    • Join city which has 7 or less population
    • Hurry building - as for military captive
    • Sacrifice - as for military captive
    Captive - Freed Slave
    • Upgrade to workers
    • Freed to join city (as food ie partial population

    Intended
    Spoiler :
    1) When you attack and kill a unit there is a small chance that they will surrender instead giving you a "Captive - Military - Nationality" unit.

    2) When you capture and raze a city (note need to look at Partisans mod)

    2a) the population will turn into "Refugees - Nationality" and "Captives - Nationality" units.

    2b) any settled specialists in the city have a small chance based on type of specialist of being captured as "Captured Specialist - Nationality". Great Generals are more likely to die defending the city or helping others escape or become partisans.​

    What you can do with these units:-
    • "Captive - Military - Nationality"
      • if Nationality is barbarian can convert them to
        • your own military - no penalty
        • Slave workers - requires slavery civic - convert to normal workers (2 for 1) when Slavery civic is left. Work at half the rate of normal workers.
        • Settle in your city as a Settled Slave (+1:food: +3:hammers: +3 crime +1:( +1:yuck:) Note: one population gives -3 food, 1 unhealth, 1 unhappiness and 3 crime and these are population.
      • Otherwise can convert them to
        • your own military - penalty promotion that they may defect back to their old nation if it exists. Penalty removed if original nation no longer exists or becomes vassal
        • Slave workers - requires slavery civic - convert to normal workers (2 for 1) when Slavery civic is left. Work at half the rate of normal workers.
        • Settle in your city as a Settled Slave (+1:food: +3:hammers: +2 crime +1:( +1:yuck:)
    • "Refugees - Nationality" - You don't have control over these, they work similar to imigrents in OV's mod but depending on date may also become "Refugee Camp" - this idea need fleshing out
      • They may settle in your city as Settled Citizens (-1:food: +2:Hammers: +1:gp: +3 crime +1:( +1:yuck:)) Note: one population gives -3 food, 1 unhealth, 1 unhappiness and 3 crime and these are population.
      • Build a Refugee Camp in your city
      • Build a Refugee Camp on the map somewhere (May become a terrorist group)
    • "Captives - Nationality" you have control of these
      • Can be settled in a city giving +1 population, may provide their native culture building. - needs more thought
      • They may settle in your city as Settled Citizens (-1:food: +2:Hammers: +1:gp: +3 crime +1:( +1:yuck:))
    • "Captured Specialist - Nationality" - can be settled as a lesser version of the specialist in a city.

    Settled Slaves are converted to Settled Citizens (2 for 1) when yow switch from slavery.

    When you whip population Settled Slaves go first then Settled Citizens then your population.

    Other tings to think about
    - prisoner exchange at end of war
    - prisoner of war camps
    - Geneva Convention(s) on warfare
    - terrorists and partizans

    more here

    Old stuff:-
    Spoiler :
    Up until now we have not been able to tell when a nation changes civic, in particular when it changes to or from the slavery civic. This has hampered and given a "not quite right" feel to the slave unit we have and how it is used.

    Currently, if you win a battle when you have the slavery civic active you may get a slave by enslaving the conquered unit. The slave can be turned into
    • a one use fighting unit
    • settled as a specialist citizen in a city
    • speed the construction of building

    However they stay around after you change from the slavery civic.

    What if on changing from slavery you were presented with options for any remaining slaves? Eg
    • free all slaves - gives extra happiness all cities - citizen specialists become population
    • convert them to workers - two slaves become one worker - two specialist citizens become one population
    • return them to the nation you took them from - much better relationship

    That leads on to Hostages, Prisoners of War and other concepts and features from the White Lies - Black Ops mod.
     
  2. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    You may want to have a special option for Sacrifice Cult civic such as "Sacrifice All Slaves" which would give a bonus to happiness but piss off your neighbors.
     
  3. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Chieftain

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    I like. Much.
     
  4. Nevets_

    Nevets_ Chieftain

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    How about whenever a civ changes from slavery to something else all their slave specialists are turned into 'freedman' units, as well as any slave units they have. Units with the slavery promotion lose it. Non-slavery civs who capture a slave unit or city with slave specialists gets them too.

    Freedmen units could join a city (+20:food: stored, I think +pop would be too OP), or upgrade to workers for free.
     
  5. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I like these ideas, and i really really like the WL-BO stuff alot.
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    OK, reopening this thread, for the slaves etc discussion which I hope to sumerise here and give an idea as to what I am intending.

    1) When you attack and kill a unit there is a small chance that they will surrender instead giving you a "Captive - Military - Nationality" unit.

    2) When you capture and raze a city (note need to look at Partisans mod)

    2a) the population will turn into "Refugees - Nationality" and "Captives - Nationality" units.

    2b) any settled specialists in the city have a small chance based on type of specialist of being captured as "Captured Specialist - Nationality". Great Generals are more likely to die defending the city or helping others escape or become partisans.​

    What you can do with these units:-
    • "Captive - Military - Nationality"
      • if Nationality is barbarian can convert them to
        • your own military - no penalty
        • Slave workers - requires slavery civic - convert to normal workers (2 for 1) when Slavery civic is left. Work at half the rate of normal workers.
      • Otherwise can convert them to
        • your own military - penalty promotion that they may defect back to their old nation if it exists. Penalty removed if original nation no longer exists or becomes vassal
        • Slave workers - requires slavery civic - convert to normal workers (2 for 1) when Slavery civic is left. Work at half the rate of normal workers.
    • "Refugees - Nationality" - You don't have control over these, they work similar to imigrents in OV's mod but depending on date may also become "Refugee Camp" - this idea need fleshing out
    • "Captives - Nationality" - Can be settled in a city giving +1 population, may provide their native culture building. - needs more thought
    • "Captured Specialist - Nationality" - can be settled as a lesser version of the specialist in a city.

    Other tings to think about
    - prisoner exchange at end of war
    - prisoner of war camps
    - Geneva Convention(s) on warfare
    - terrorists and partizans
     
  7. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Do we have the source for the WLBO SDK by any chance?
     
  8. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Are we going to make a Slavery civic like what was discussed in other topics (ex. Pre-Slavery, Slavery, Emancipation, Robotic Slavery, etc)?
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    No

    Probably, but I forgot to include it here. I suppose I should update the first post with my recent post and the stuff on the civic. but I almost have extra diplomacy doing stuff (not the full stuff).
     
  10. Cyrusfan

    Cyrusfan Chieftain

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    If one has no razing of cities, none of this applies, right?

    I ask because there was talk (I don't remember if it was here or back in AND) of allowing sacking of cities, as kind of a partial raze. The city remains with reduced population (half or 1) and in some state that prevents resacking for some duration (until the end of the war with the civ that sacked it-or maybe the reduced state is such that there would be no benefits from re-sacking). Sacking would be allowed even under the no raze option.

    Would a captured specialist-formerly a great whatever-simply be a specialist of that type (once settled)?
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Well some cities are just so small (size 1) that you have no choice about razing the game just does it.

    If we add the sacking mod then that will have differing effects. As should Abandon City based on cultural percentages. If you are reducing the population something must happen to the civilians.

    That would be the simplest but maybe the Captured Military Advisor becomes a Military Instructor instead giving only +1 xp but maybe allowing units to be trained. The Captured Great Artist may be a lesser artist but give you acces to the culture (base) of their home nation.

    It is all up for discussion. Which reminds me I forgot to add in some settle options.

    Edit redid the opening post to contain as much discussion and a summary so far. I think I have the numbers wrong for the Settled Slave and Settled Citizen.
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    This is where I am at currently. I am about to start making the units and changing the python code so comment now.

    Two important posts to remember
    1 Slaves in PIE's ancient europe mod and
    2. team suggested solution

    For starters I am going to implement

    1) On capturing and raizing a city
    you get one "Captive - Civilian" per population of the city
    you get one "Captive - (specialist) per specialist in the city​
    2) the capture of the three different types of captives
    "Captives - Military" may become
    Slave Workers (work twice as fast as normal gatherers/workers but have a chance of dieing or running away

    Your military - but with some "bad" promotion which will need to be countered with a good promotion.

    Used to construct building (twice as good as early merchant or equavilent)

    Settled Slaves - same as normal population being a slave but increased chance of revolt​

    "Captives - Civilian" may become
    Population in a city with extra +1:(, +1:yuck: for a number of turns

    (later - Settled Civilian - same as normal population (need to figure out some average of what the current civilians are producing/using after all they may be producing 12 food on a farm or 12 hammers on a mine.)​

    "Captives - (specialist)" can do anything that the normal great person can do, if it is a GP. Otherwise it is the same as a "Captive - Slave" or "Captive - Citizen"

    3) To start with you may capture a "Captive" under any civic but you running slavery increases your chance.

    Later
    1) your and their civics will determine the actual chance eg if they are running the mecenaries civic then capture is more likely.
    2) military promotions will transfer from old to new (not equipment ones)
    3) Whipping of population takes settled slaves then settled citizens before population.​
     
  13. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I very much like PIE's Slave option, they are actually not to bad really.

    Total_War has another interesting one, there is one more that is totally different, but the author did keep a record of what he did and he has it mixed in with the dll, and it was over a year ago since he has been on CFC.
     
  14. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel Chieftain

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    Unless you re-capture it, no?


    And some random ideas :
    • Eat slaves
    • Slaves as human shield like in too many wars...)
    • Human experiment on slave (like nazis)
    • Sacrifice slave (if you have a sacrificial altar)
    • Torture slave for informations (can give some espionage)
    • Human zoo (like in early 1900s in Europe, where some black was put in zoo)
    • Transform into citizen in a1on1 (with Mind uploading or another brainwashing tech)
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Those are mainly future enhancements. I really want to get from where we are now to something a bit more balanced. I eventually want to add diplomatic stuff like prisoner ransom and exchange. Plus things like putting them in "Prisoner of War camps" rather than whatever they did before the Napoleonic Wars.
     
  16. LumenAngel

    LumenAngel Chieftain

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    OK, but i 'm just playing now, in slavery, and I often just destroy some slave (too far from any city and I m unable to protect them). If slave/hostage/prisonner must have an impact, this option must be removed/reworked.
    And what is I capture a captive of one of my citizens/specialist?
    And (finally), I dont know if it s easy to make, but a BUG options like "units unable to capture dont attack capturable units". Can be usefull when I put a warlors in auto-hunt/auto-pillage in an ennemy colony to prepare something bigger. So, they won't destroy Captives (and worker...)
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Replying to the first post, remember that we had determined that Settled Slaves would cost 2 food whereas Specialist Slaves would add one. This is important to keep straight if we're going to balance according to that conversation, which I thought was spot on.

    Also... I think we'd have some issues with them switching to settled citizens. Is there a way for them to become a basic population instead?
     
  18. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    1) I am confused but that is not unusual ;) Settled = Specialist as far as I know ie you settle a slave as a Specialist Slave. Population can be slaves or artists or work the land etc.

    2) "Captive - Military" can be settled in a city as a "Specialist - Slave".

    3) "Captive - Civilian" I have changed my mind on and they should only be settled as population. You get 1 for 1 population when you raze a city but some of them may die or eventually run away as "Refugee - Citizen".
     
  19. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    @DH:

    Two questions.

    1. Are you planning to add a "POW camp" Building to house prisoners of war in the modern era, and if so, will using prisoners for that mean that they don't add to the city's population?

    2. Is there going to be any 'war crimes' concept to go along with this, ie if you don't treat prisoners nicely you will take relations hits with people?

    Also, I think that we should stay away from the more unsavory treatment of prisoners, at least on a direct level, as that could offend some people. If you didn't want the POWs, you could simply disband them, as an abstraction for getting rid of them.
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Well, we had determined that the slaves you can set as specialists from basic population needed to have a differing definition from the ones you settle into the city. Reason being that the first is counting as a population, thus -3 food, 1 unhealth, 1 unhappiness and 3 crime (and anything else from a population) are already counted for them, whereas the 'free' specialists you get when you settle don't have those modifiers attached.

    THUS they would need to be defined as two forms of specialists entirely, Citizen Slaves and Settled Slaves. They would be identical except that the Settled slaves don't actually count as a population, population can't be assigned to those roles, and instead, as 'free specialists' and proxy population that doesn't show up in the actual city population count, should include their population penalties in their layout.

    We determined that Citizen Slaves would give a food because slaves aren't fed as much as a normal citizen and thus Settled Slaves would only cost 2 food, rather than 3. We were also debating adding an extra unhappiness, possibly an extra unhealth (they'd be getting a standard 1 each due to being a proxy population and if the Citizen Slave is getting 1 each, the Settled slave should be thus getting 2 unhappiness and 2 unhealth.) and potentially extra crime as well.

    Disease? I'm not sure if disease is established by population but if it is, that'd need to be considered too... and as an aside, slaves would be more likely to contract and spread disease too so I'd propose extending their contribution in this department a bit.



    Now... about point 3... It was stated before also that captured citizens (from a city razing for example) under slavery should be the ONLY types that should be able to settle as slaves (due to counting as a population.)

    Military ones should be able to be put to use in your military, in the way you are planning this you have it spot on I think. And Military should also be able to rush build as they are put to death via heavy labor.

    But since they don't, as previous military units, count as a full population point when built, we can only assume they don't represent enough of a population to even become a settled specialist. Furthermore, they would be highly untrusted to be put to work in civil tasks. However, if we wanted to turn them into workers that could potentially revolt, I'm all for that concept too.

    These are just suggestions and opinions, but they are also what I understood the consensus was that we had reached in the previous thread.
     

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