Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok, I'm not sure how you're seeing 100% Capture Probability. Looking deeply into this save, code and game, I'm only seeing a 10% Capture Probability, which I presume is from a Civic since all the units are receiving the same 10%. When I attacked, I didn't capture so its not functionally 100% either. Perhaps you continued to work on things and got the problem hammered out and failed to mention it here again?

Anyhow, no bug found.

I did not do anything! I was getting 100 from the captureProbabilityTotal() but that was early when combating barbarians and had Slavery on. Now I am getting better or more realistic values when battling ai nations without slavery on. So I still think there may be a problem, unless you tried both with and without the Slavery world view active.

I have just this instant found a different bug. One I suspected. I am doing captureProbabilityTotal() - captureResistanceTotal() but the latter is negative so I should be adding it!

edit just reran my test and everything seems OK now.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hate to tell ya this DH but your calculation was correct - it's the assumption that the captureresistance tags should've been put into negative numerical values to represent increased resistance that was incorrect. The wording on the displays will be opposite to the effect if the resistance tags are placed into negative values for greater resistance.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hate to tell ya this DH but your calculation was correct - it's the assumption that the captureresistance tags should've been put into negative numerical values to represent increased resistance that was incorrect. The wording on the displays will be opposite to the effect if the resistance tags are placed into negative values for greater resistance.

Great! I just committed the change . Oh well since I am the only one who has set any values, I must have put in the "-". So I will need to change both. I thought that they looked right on the civics screen with the "-".

 

[Thunderbrd]

It could be easily misread without some familiarity... the negative amount says Units have a -x% chance to avoid capture. There's something of a double negative in there but it makes its point generically along with the positive, which will say Units have a +x% chance to avoid capture.

 

[Faustmouse]

Did you change something here? Compared to V30, the latest SVN doesn't give ANY Captetives. Well, I got ONE, but I fought over a hundred battles so far - with banditry on all the time (and for more than 90 battle also with Slavery Worldview).

 

[Koshling]

Did you change something here? Compared to V30, the latest SVN doesn't give ANY Captetives. Well, I got ONE, but I fought over a hundred battles so far - with banditry on all the time (and for more than 90 battle also with Slavery Worldview).

I seem to still be getting captives with latest (maybe one in 4 or so I'd say). Some civics modify the rate - I wonder if some combinations of civics leave you basically unable to capture or something...?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Only two civics change the rate at the moment and bot increase the chance of captives. You are more likely to get captives from battles in cities and against barbarians.

 

[Faustmouse]

Yeah, when I started to attack Cities I got some more Slaves. But why? Shouldn't it be the other way round?

- If you attack an enemy city on their territory, there are houses, walls, secret tunnels... The defeated enemy can hide and rund away much easier since he knows people and the landscape.

- If you defend your city or fighting on your territory, YOU know the landscape, they don't. And you have much more support from the civil population around the city that can tell you where the defeated enemy tries to hide.

 

[Nimek]

Completely agree with faustmouse

 

[LumenAngel]

I think some units (Criminals and Hunters?) should have a promo increasing their chance to have slave. Maybe a special promotion for Great Commander to increase chance of capture units. And another one for Heroes (Marshall : Greatly increase chance of capture Slaves and animals, bonis against Criminals and Animals)
In the other hand, some promo like fanatic have to reduce the chance of being captured.

Another ideas : Slavers. A weak criminals units able on an ennemy cottage (or better) tile to raze it and give uou a slave (Civilian) unit.

And agree with Nimek for being agree with Faustmouse

 

[Thunderbrd]

We're simply talking about an undeveloped territory here. Yes, absolutely, Capturing is intended to be manipulated by new promotion lines. Those promos haven't been developed yet but they are a high priority to do so. Some units, the Holkan I think being one, were historically specialized for the role of capturing. So those units have tags to be made naturally better (or worse) at the job of capturing the opponent units.

There's also the ability to give promos and unit abilities to help them resist capture. However, I think largely I'm holding off on promoting the use of those until I can weave them into a unit Morale system as I believe morale is pretty much one of the major factors in increasing or decreasing the capturability of a unit.

Additionally, I built tags so that buildings can influence the capturability of local units (and the ability of defenders to capture failing attackers) that still need to be put to some use and that would start addressing the city issue y'all are discussing. Cities probably should be as they are by default, BUT defensive and crime control buildings could reduce the capturability factor on local units. (Crime control buildings simply because to surrender is a form of crime.) As well, Crime emergent buildings should probably have some effects to make local defenders all the more captureable, another reason to want to control your crime levels.


All this is already possible, fully enabled tags with AI and all. It's just going to take some analysis of the current buildings, promotions and units that we have to figure out where we should already be using these modifiers and where we need more.

I currently have in mind a Bounty Hunter line of promos for Criminals, a Man Trapper line of promos for Hunters, and a Non-Lethal Warfare line of promos for most Combatants that would enable these units to develop their skills at capturing.

Beyond that, if someone wants to take the job of building, unit, and current promo analysis to make suggestions on how we should use these tags, by all means someone please pick up the task and start a thread to go over things on that matter! Teamwork makes the dream work right?

 

[LumenAngel]

I m note sure we need more building. Some defense (Walls, Castle...)and anti-criminal building (Townwatch) are maybe enough.
Propaganda and Nationalist Civics will surely help too to defend against capture. Cannibalsm and Human will mybe give a malus : who want to surrend when you will be eaten/sacrifice?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Some units, the Holkan I think being one, were historically specialized for the role of capturing. So those units have tags to be made naturally better (or worse) at the job of capturing the opponent units.

Besides the Holkan, that the Stonewall Brigade (Confederate) and Klamath Rifleman should probably be better at taking slaves.

There's also the ability to give promos and unit abilities to help them resist capture. However, I think largely I'm holding off on promoting the use of those until I can weave them into a unit Morale system as I believe morale is pretty much one of the major factors in increasing or decreasing the capturability of a unit.

A good unit for this would be the Haitian Rebel. They were armed slaves who fought for their freedom in the Haitian Revolution.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Since the cost to upgrade captives to other units is not working, ie costs nothing even though a cost is there, I am going to remove that ability for now. I have PMed ls612 and put reports in the bug thread.

I hope to get the golden ages for human sacrifice working this week.

 

[Hanny]

Yeah, when I started to attack Cities I got some more Slaves. But why? Shouldn't it be the other way round?

- If you attack an enemy city on their territory, there are houses, walls, secret tunnels... The defeated enemy can hide and rund away much easier since he knows people and the landscape.

- If you defend your city or fighting on your territory, YOU know the landscape, they don't. And you have much more support from the civil population around the city that can tell you where the defeated enemy tries to hide.

Depends what you *think is happening, a siege or close investment usually occurs before an asault on a city, if it succeds the entire population is then at the mercy of the attacking forces.

Carthage was sieged out and the entire pop went into slavery, ditto for Alexander and Thebes, Rome and tarrentium, Corinth, Allesia, Mongels would often exterminate entire city populations, and so on as examples in the ancient period. Flower wars in S And Central America were fought to capture the field forces of the enemy for slaves or sacrifice, so we have some cultures prone to take captives, and it being more prevalent in some periods of history, which would be civic settings i guess as the better method of represenation.

 

[Faustmouse]

Good points. You seems to know a lot about captives, do you want to review the cultural units and maybe promotions to see which should gives + chance of capturing and which - chance of capturing?

That would be really helpfull.

 

[LumenAngel]

A lit up about WV : Cannibalism have nearly no building for himself, so, here some ideas
- Human Farm (buildable by Captured Civilian, req Worldview (Cannibalism)). +1 food +1 health, produce carcass, +1 unhappy with egalitarian
- Neanderthal Farm (buildable by Captured Neanderthal, req Worldview (Cannibalism)). +1 food +1 health, produce carcass, +1 unhappy with egalitarian

And because these worldvew can exists even if they are illegal
- Crime (Cannibalism) (auto-buildable, req 400 Crime), +1 food, +2 unhappy, +2 unhealthy. Replace by Worldview (Cannibalism))
- Crime (Slavery) (auto-buildable, req 180 Crime), +1 food, +1 production, +3 unhappy, +1 unhappy with egalitarian. Replace by Worldview (Slavery))
- Crime (Human sacrifice) (auto-buildable, req 300 Crime), +3 unhappy. Replace by Worldview (Human sacrifice))

 

[Yudishtira]

A lit up about WV : Cannibalism have nearly no building for himself, so, here some ideas
- Human Farm (buildable by Captured Civilian, req Worldview (Cannibalism)). +1 food +1 health, produce carcass, +1 unhappy with egalitarian
- Neanderthal Farm (buildable by Captured Neanderthal, req Worldview (Cannibalism)). +1 food +1 health, produce carcass, +1 unhappy with egalitarian

And because these worldvew can exists even if they are illegal
- Crime (Cannibalism) (auto-buildable, req 400 Crime), +1 food, +2 unhappy, +2 unhealthy. Replace by Worldview (Cannibalism))
- Crime (Slavery) (auto-buildable, req 180 Crime), +1 food, +1 production, +3 unhappy, +1 unhappy with egalitarian. Replace by Worldview (Slavery))
- Crime (Human sacrifice) (auto-buildable, req 300 Crime), +3 unhappy. Replace by Worldview (Human sacrifice))

Excellent ideas - these are absolutely necessary imho.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A lit up about WV : Cannibalism have nearly no building for himself, so, here some ideas
- Human Farm (buildable by Captured Civilian, req Worldview (Cannibalism)). +1 food +1 health, produce carcass, +1 unhappy with egalitarian
- Neanderthal Farm (buildable by Captured Neanderthal, req Worldview (Cannibalism)). +1 food +1 health, produce carcass, +1 unhappy with egalitarian

And because these worldvew can exists even if they are illegal
- Crime (Cannibalism) (auto-buildable, req 400 Crime), +1 food, +2 unhappy, +2 unhealthy. Replace by Worldview (Cannibalism))
- Crime (Slavery) (auto-buildable, req 180 Crime), +1 food, +1 production, +3 unhappy, +1 unhappy with egalitarian. Replace by Worldview (Slavery))
- Crime (Human sacrifice) (auto-buildable, req 300 Crime), +3 unhappy. Replace by Worldview (Human sacrifice))

The buildings are OK the crimes not so much. Crime (Slavery) could work with a bit of tweaking but I am not sure about the others at all. Except in the movies I have not heard of a modern case of either cannibalism or human sacrifice.

Do we have a "Witch Hunt" event or crime?

 

[LumenAngel]

Never heard about human sacrifice? Wow... There are lot of case in Africa, some in Haiti and South America. Yes, in area with a "culture" of Human sacrifice, but I have no idea how this can be implemented...
And for cannibalism, far less case, but some are realy creepy. My original idea was only when starvation, but that need a new tag (but can allow a Black market Crime and some others things)