Slow, slow, sllloowwww artillery

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by Khshayarsha
I guess I just prefer the Blitzkrieg style. I like to slam my stacks over the border and take a city in the same turn, or in two turns at most. By taking 4 turns to even begin the attack after declaring war, it gives the enemy times enough to mobilize a stronger defense.

I guess if you are examing the tactics for taking a single city, arty can seem an encumberance. But I find it essential in the overall wartime conquest. BTW, you could always declare war AFTER arty is in place.

Whilst my attack troops are taking the city, the arty battery moves on to the next city to soften it up: take out food supply (to shrink the size of the city), take out luxuries (turn the hearts and minds of the citizens against their evil ruler, maybe wreck some trade agreements), take out bonuses to hurt the econ and take out roads to slow reinforcements. After that, hit the city to chip a few HPs off the units to make it a cake walk for the attack troops, and maybe count units inside.

With flight, enemy cities tend to get a double dose: first a barrage from arty, mainly to take out the SAM and barracks, and soften them up as above. Then move on to the next city while bombers move in to chip away at the populace and chip HPs until attack troops arrive.

Bombers just allow more tactical options. If the campaign is to plunge INTO enemy territory, use a leap frog approach: arty softens the city, attack, add bombers to the garrison to take out counter attacks and bombard deeper. If the campaign is ALONG a border, for general expansion, you can hassle 2 or 3 cities as well as protect your flanks with with arty while bombers press the main attack.

Rather than allowing the enemy time to reinforce, it DIFFUSES reinforcements to multiple locations. In general, this way it seems that beyond the first counter attack is the only one to worry about. After that they have to use more and more troops to reinforce points of attack and can manage only weak, even laughable, counter offensives. (part of this is the lame way the AI reinforces).

Arty IS poorly configured: stuff like radar arty IS lethal and has a much longer range (like OTH - Over The Horizon), but doesnt have to slow down a theater operation. A blitz on one city is swell, but the enemy can counter your attack easier when there is a single point of attack. Esp pre RR, you can overcome the speed thing by leapfrogging banks or batteries of arty in a shoot and scoot type move where one bombards while the other moves up.

With 2-3 batteries of arty and a sqadron of bombers attacking cities IN ADDITION to the one your tanks, cav or MA are attacking they have 2, 3 or 5.

For several geo-political CIv reasons, My campaign to take the west arm of the Zulus W shaped continent to get Uranium was entirely dependant on taking 10 - 12 cities with a handful of Cav, some MA and a LOT or radar arty and some naval support. I captured the first 2 cities as fire bases, leapfrogged arty to raze each of the next 6-8 cities, using the workers to build roads for my advance. I split the arty into 3 banks, 2 to attack cities, and 1 to defend counter attacks. It was all over in about 3-4 turns - with each heathen city replaced by fresh new one of mine except for the first 2 and the last one.

I was numerically outnumbered but lost only one MA (and several disposable slave laborers) and 2 Cav. Effective use of arty made the difference, but then the "Stack Attack" approach has always struck me as the cannon fodder approach, too.

 

[dozenlong]

That's my point. If you are acheiving numerical superiority with fast units over the AI on a high level of difficulty, you're doing something better than me -- I need a war or two in order to claim the largest civ spot, and another couple to cement it in. Artillery tactics let me preserve my unit value, prevent culture flip (by annihilating city populations without rep hit)

If I get to the modern age, usually I have already fought my important wars -- then it may just be a matter of throwing a bunch of MA or tanks at it. However, in most of my games the dam of war seems to burst with the invention of riflemen -- cavalry vs. riflemen don't do all that well.

 

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by dozenlong
That's my point. If you are acheiving numerical superiority with fast units over the AI on a high level of difficulty, you're doing something better than me -- I need a war or two in order to claim the largest civ spot, and another couple to cement it in. Artillery tactics let me preserve my unit value, prevent culture flip (by annihilating city populations without rep hit)

If I get to the modern age, usually I have already fought my important wars -- then it may just be a matter of throwing a bunch of MA or tanks at it. However, in most of my games the dam of war seems to burst with the invention of riflemen -- cavalry vs. riflemen don't do all that well.

Calification: in the example, I was numerically inferior, but had better/faster units, just not very many in that theater and it would take at least 3 turns for reinforcements to arrive.

You hit on some great points though: Arty reduces the population pre-assult. I rarely care about a rep hit, but that means the size of the garrison required is reduced dramatically as well.

The downside to artillery enforced population reduction is the loss of improvemetns that you might want. I hate to see the marketplace go, OTOH, when the barracks goes, you know the chances of them holding the city are circling the drain.

Yet another advantage is to red line the city defenders, then attack with units positioend the turn before - this leaves them with 2 or 3 times to attack. With MA, each one can take out 3 defenders, if he/she is elite, you have 3 chances for a GL.

 

[Krayzeenbk]

To sum it all up, artillery is the way to go, and if you are not using it, you are definetely missing out in a big way (or you are playing on too low a level).

 

[Gogf]

Or planes. Planes are at least as good as artillery.

 

[Woody]

Originally posted by Krayzeenbk
To sum it all up, artillery is the way to go, and if you are not using it, you are definetely missing out in a big way (or you are playing on too low a level).

One person's opnion, I play on emperor most the time and have no problem waging war with zero artillery units of any kind. I just cant stand the slow pace of war with artillery, particulary once I have modern armor. Even bombers are useless then since after the first turn of the war they are nowhere near the front.

Yes this does work best against weaker enemies but that is part of a grand strategy you take out the little guys first so you can expand till you have enough production to take out the big ones.

PS I love when I capture enemy artillery units, I disband them and have a temple half built.

 

[Krayzeenbk]

"Particularly once I have modern armor"

Some of us like to win before then, and for many of us even Motorized Transportation comes just before our victory, too late to have any decisive effect. So by "fast units" in all of your posts we understand "cavalry" which is entirely useless without any kind of artillery support. Of course if you like to wait for tanks, then you are welcome to do that.

The same story applies to flight.


I am itching for war by the time RP comes along, and I will not wait the turns it takes to research all those techs to get the fast units to conquer my enemies when I can build artillery in the meantime and do it faster.

 

[Gogf]

Well, with stealth bombers, they are always near the front... Also, cavalry are not useless until the AI gets nationalism (of course, they can still kill a rifleman without artillery...)

 

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by Woody

One person's opnion, I play on emperor most the time and have no problem waging war with zero artillery units of any kind. I just cant stand the slow pace of war with artillery, particulary once I have modern armor.

I'll agree that early arty is cumbersome, but I dont see how arty use affects the "pace" of the war. If you have rail, they move as fast and as far as MA.

The big difference is that as a stand off attack unit, arty can inflict damage without your units taking any damage at all. I am rather fond of inflicting maximum damage while suffering minimum losses.

Even bombers are useless then since after the first turn of the war they are nowhere near the front.

This is a mostly an issue of tactics. If you have a single stack of bombers (or arty, for that matter) and fire them all off, then yes, you can find them well behind the front lines. OTOH, leapfrog style movements of 2+ stacks keeps a fair number of them at the front not only for offensive but defensive purposes.

The same applies to arty, though you sort of need a band of slaves to rail the way to the front. Because of this, depending on the terrain, bombers can be of more use than arty. Even then arty can offer support on the flanks and on salients.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Woody


One person's opnion, I play on emperor most the time and have no problem waging war with zero artillery units of any kind. I just cant stand the slow pace of war with artillery, particulary once I have modern armor.

Funny. I find that Arty speeds up my offensives, since I don't have to pause and wait for reinforcements, which I invariably have to do frequently if I'm crashing thru metropoleis filled with up-to-date defenders.

 

[tempest's dawn]

Hey everyone...

First, I'm new to the forum here...and it's very cool to see how ppl share strategies for this game...

Just restarted my civ3 addiction again with C3C on the monarch level...and to add my two cents...It's hard to win a war without the help of artillery...especially when the AI has stacks of cavalry...tanks...whatever...in your territory. Your stack of artillery neutralizes this threat with great efficiency.
On the attack, I usually use the settler tactic (mentioned somewhere here b4...) where settler settles so that my artillery is within range of my target city...

 

[zerksees]

Originally posted by Gogf
Or planes. Planes are at least as good as artillery.

I find planes much more frustrating because they get shot down all the time. When I build arty, they bombard turn after turn after turn. As long as I has a good number of MA to defend them, I never lose them.

 

[handy900]

When Moonsinger talks, I listen.

Here's why: 54155 Diety HOF score.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Wellcome to CFC, tempest's dawn! Now you've got two addictions on your hands; CivIII and CFC!

 

[Flavor Dave]

Originally posted by Khshayarsha
I don't even bother to build Catapult or Cannon, because of the low effectiveness.

I just want to say that while for me, cannon completely suck, catapults are great. I like to have 2-3 of them in my invasion vanguard. Throw in 4-5 vet. swordsmen and 2-3 vet. spearmen, and you can usually take out the 2 cities it takes to get the enemy to agree to peace. The catapults take away a hit point or two or four and swing the odds in your favor when attacking fortified spearmen. And if you take a neighboring civ down from 8 cities to 6, that's it, he shouldn't be a threat all game.

My basic, preferred strategy is to hurt a neighboring civ as early as possible, and catapults help with that. They have the added benefit of helping you defend...they get a shot in when attacked, usually taking a hit point or two away. That might be all you need for your spearman to survive against a horseman.

 

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by zerksees
I find planes much more frustrating because they get shot down all the time. When I build arty, they bombard turn after turn after turn. As long as I has a good number of MA to defend them, I never lose them.

A tactic to counter that is to first use the Embassy to investigate the city and see if they have a SAM (as well as the size of the garrison) - or just bomb to if they do have one. If they do have a SAM, roll up the arty and pound on them until you see the SAM is destroyed, then send in the bombers. You still might lose one or two bombers to fighters/jets but far fewer than you would to SAMs.

The rest of the arty can then either work on the flanks or move down the line to work on softening another target before this one is actually taken. Flight and SAMs tend to prolong the siege stage for me, since that means the cities are prolly older and larger, and I'd rather bomb the size down than tie up a huge amount of garrison troops.

 

[Krayzeenbk]

Originally posted by Gogf
Well, with stealth bombers, they are always near the front... Also, cavalry are not useless until the AI gets nationalism (of course, they can still kill a rifleman without artillery...)

I'm assuming the AI is able to research Nationalism (scientific civ, anyone) by the time you research Replaceable Parts.

Losing large numbers of cavalry to a damn rifleman in a large city I don't feel like starving is not my idea of fun. I'd much rather put those spt into artillery and never have to replace it again.

 

[Xether]

its nearly impossible to take the AI capital without artillary. Whenever i reach their capital theres around 10-20 units fortified.

In my current game im the koreans.i had to use over 30 of those Hwach'a on the ai capital so my 3 knight armies could have a chance.

BTW the Hwach'a sucks lol. im never gonna be the koreans ever again. i thought they had 12 bombardment.. then when i clicked on the unit itsaid 8. they are just cannons without the need for iron. i think the Hwach'a needs to be toughened up.

 

[Krayzeenbk]

Aye, I had a game where I was doing cavalry vs riflemen in war against the Celts. When I finally decided to take the last city for that war (the capital), I didn't know I was in for a 200-year "siege". I had started building my first artillery at the time. I kept bombarding the city from the time I had 4 artillery until I had over 60, because that's how many it took to take that capital. And I lost a couple of armies in the process (you'd think an army of infantry would be able to take 2 hit points off a rifleman before it took its 12 hit points, but no such luck - no military academy or heroic epic for me during that war).

 

[AngryGerbil]

In later games when your civ is railed I like to keep a stack of artillery at home and move them to any city that sees a threat, bombard the crap outta the invading army and watch them retreat the next turn. I like this when I fight a two front war. Use my attackers (with artillery) to attack side A and use another stack of artillery to railroad around home and deflect any invasions from side B.