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Small things you hope will be in game

Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by Krajzen, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Not necessarily on release but sooner or later. This thread is preferably not for large systems (GOOD DIPLOMACY) but for smaller, especially not Obvious components. Mine are:

    - An immersive statistic panel in game which displays various parametres about discovered cultures
    - A Global Relations view
    - Replays which can be saved (evolution of the map, statistics across time)
    - Map editor sooner or later (although that's really stretching the definition of "small" :p )
    - Massive global repercussions of using nuclear weapons (diplomacy, risk of nuclear winter etc)
    - 95% this won't happen but a specific dream of mine: special territories which can't be colonized until the modern era technology and which then contain priceless resources. To simulate vast areas IRL which were uninhabitable for the entire history until 20th century and then turned out to be important. Also great for keeping colonization race relevant until the end game.
    - 95% won't happen but: climate fluctuation across centuries, making yields slightly go up and down on certain eras/types of terrain.

    What are yours?
     
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  2. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    Oh, I'd love this so much.

    I would add demographics and minor cultures changing through the eras as well.
     
  3. zhugejingqi

    zhugejingqi Chieftain

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    I think your suggestion is very good. Even if it is two suggestions that you think are not likely, they will be cashed out in the game.
     
  4. zhugejingqi

    zhugejingqi Chieftain

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    Some personal suggestions. A clearer map of diplomatic relations, a more intelligent trading interface (you don't have to try the best price over and over again), and what changes will happen to ideology and the corresponding effect when selecting events?
     
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  5. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

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    Anything to mix things up in the late game - namely more challenges that are NOT based on other Civs and their AIs. I don't participate in endless AI debates because I know the AI will never come close to performing like a human. My view has always been that the game should have challenges that are NOT based on other Civs. If you have started snowballing around medieval/renaissance and have outpaced other civs, there needs to be some internal or external threat not dependent upon other Civs that continues to make the game interesting. I've asked for this countless times in the Civ forums. The only example they've done on this is climate change / disasters but they barely have any impact - and it is not fun to deal with the impact (build flood barriers, then have workers chase disasters to clean up after them like Whack a Mole). I think Stellaris does a good job of this though I've only played it once (too many systems, too overwhelming) and Old World is pretty good at this with challenging random events (albeit they are not challenging enough in late game but sometimes they are, resulting in sudden war). Jon Shafer's At the Gates is also decent at this b/c there is a major power looming (like in Colonization), but more importantly b/c all the clans have strengths and weakness that compete and sometimes creates a lot of internal challenges regardless of how bad the AI is.

    There might be an internal upheaval b/c of size of empire (think Rome). Maybe the farmers start protesting and you lose food entirely in some cities, etc.. and the only way to appease them is by fulfilling some specific quest that ideally cannot be automatically fulfilled simply because you are snowballing. For instance, the farmers may demand that you reduce investment in military for a while. Or use a governor as a general and win a battle.

    Anything to reduce micromanagement in the late game by allowing AI automation, decreasing the # of choices generally, but greatly increasing the impact of such choices so they are more interesting . Examples are below. This is the only reason I don't keep playing Endless Legend or Endless Space and I'm worried they will continue these errors because they did them in the Endless series which is their foundation for this game. The Endless games do streamline some things like the Governors, and allow combination of units so you don't have to move units one at a time, but there are systems in both that require escalating micromanaging which ruins the Endless series for me (or causes me to quit mid-game), where such choices make no real difference in the game. This includes:

    1) Equipping units with upgraded weapons on a regular basis. PLEASE for the love of god provide an automation option and allow player to make broad suggestions (i.e., offense or defense, whether to use some special mineral or not), which the AI just follows. I know this is a feature that Amplitude is proud of, but I stop playing Endless Legend and Space in the late game literally because of this equipment nightmare. Min-maxers (of which I am not one) can continue equipping to their heart's content. Stellaris is also terrible about this b/c you have to upgrade your ships like every 2-5 turns. Civ VI and Old World does a good job of this with promotions, which are rare and make a huge impact. Reduce the number of equipment slots or increase the difficulty of obtaining something, and make the impact substantial. At a minimum, list ALL units with equipment slots in ONE screen in which you can move and drop equipment, or say "Apply to All Units" some particular equipment. (Think Great Works screen in Civ VI, a better version of that).

    2) Assigning abilities to Governors/Generals when they level up. This is fun in the beginning but is a complete nightmare late game, when you have 15-20+ governors that increase level frequently and you have to manage each of them and by that time, their traits make no difference, and each governor can level up 25 times and each trait becomes increasingly not impactful and boring to pick. Please allow AI automation on this - I get that picking traits can be a big deal so maybe the AI presents recommendations of what to level up presented to you in a popup, and then you can say yay, nay, or let me pick.

    3) Same, re equipping Governors/Generals if that is a feature (also a micromanagement nightmare in Total War 3K with ancillaries, which make no difference in late game). Either have an AI automation option, or present a screen every now and then listing which generals have which equipment and allowing you to substitute or move them around from one governor to another ON THE SAME SCREEN (think Great Works in Civ VI), rather than unequipping, opening another gov screen, then reequipping. Or make such items very few but very impactful.

    4) Hacking from Endless Space. This is also complete nightmare mid-late game. You can ignore hacking, but you lose out on important benefits, but to engage in hacking successfully you have to click like 3-5 times to set up one hacking thing and you end up having like 5-10 hacking things you have to re-setup every X turns. Maybe hacking won't apply to humankind but if they repeat some system modeled after this, please find some way to AI automate as an option or otherwise reduce the number of clicks to one (perhaps by adopting a policy of picking by default X or Y defensive/offensive thing, which itself was extremely confusing, barely made a different, and uninteresting. Also hacking in general was confusing and opaque to me.)

    5) Combat. In general I like the way they do it in Endless Legend, which appears to be the model they are going for. I like being able to choose between micromanaging the battle and automating (like in Total War 3K), though if you do automation, perhaps the outcome should not be 100% knowable based on the AI's analysis (like in Total War 3K). However, combat in Endless Space was horrible so please avoid that kind of system or make it extremely easy to understand. They tried to make it interesting with the cards, but this cards were extremely confusing no matter how many times it is explained to me (I will never ever understand how to use them and not just automatically pick the ones based on firepower and range, to the extent I'm even reading the firepower and range info correctly which I probably am not). At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what equipment or card you pick, the one with the biggest Stack of Doom wins the combat.

    6) Improvements. Please make them more interesting than the ones in Endless Space and Legend. In both games, you just end up picking the blob that matches the color of the FISD thing you want to increase. I have no idea what the blob is referring to, I don't see the building on my screen, they all have generic names and the only way I can make them interesting is by reading definitions of what they are which is tedious. This creates a very boring Excel experience, i.e., "bucket" type game that takes me out of role-playing. And in any Endless game, there are maybe 7-10 buildings that are the same blob color and you just pick them without paying attention to what they are. Yes, some of them do have secondary effects but given that FISD is king, none of that matters. The districts in Civ VI are good b/c you can see them and there are only 3 buildings, most (nor all) of which do something unique and instead of increasing X by Y points. .

    Mouseovers. Old World has completely spoiled me here. Please make almost anything mouseoverable with tool tips and links like in Old World.

    The Excel / bucket game in general. This is a "large system" suggestion. :) The Amplitude games are all based on FISD and I hate that FISD seems to be embraced as a strength. I have no problem with filling buckets, which all 4X games require, but it's implemented in a way in Endless that is more off-putting than in other 4K games, in a way that I can't quite put my finger on. I think it's b/c the game is so focused on bucket filling and everything is color-coded to focus entirely on bucket filling, it creates an Excel experience with no interesting side effects or no interesting tradeoffs. It doesn't help that we've even developed a bloodless acronym to describe it which makes it even more an Excel issue, to the point where Amplitude seems to pride itself on the FISD color-coded experience (which baffles me)which further makes the game feel like Excel - just pick the magic color to get more of some unit. Old World does a good job of making bucket filling a challenge b/c systems are so interdependent in a way that enhances the role playing experience - some improvements and decisions fill more than one bucket while imposing collateral side effects (this is mainly through random events). Civ VI is decent at this because there are many ways to fill certain buckets other than "Build X with the color blob Y," yes the districts and buildings are color-coded but at least you can see them clearly on a map and they aren't just abstracted somewhere. Total War 3K can be bucket-ish, but food and gold is so precarious so there is constant tension over whether I have enough food or gold (Old World does this too), with many internal challenges not dependent on other Civs' AI.

    OK that was a lot!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  6. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Deserts taking up as many movement points as hills (and tundra as well I guess).

    What, you asked for small things!

    (in general though, the non-static changing map would be cool as well)
     
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  7. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    The feature I really like for this game is the ability to "merge cities" in the late game, so they are always at a manageable amount. It doesn't have the "equip unit" upgrades and combat can be auto-resolved.
     
  8. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

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    actual unique architecture for all factions from industrial onward, I would be terribly dissaponted if Amplitude pulls a Firaxis and goes: "all modern architecture is pretty much the same so why bother".
    Paris, London, New York, Tokio, Ankara, Moscow, all should look different from one another.
     
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  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    On a similar note, I wonder how eurocentric (west centric) the game's going to be in small details. It has annoyed me in civ how 60-80% of all great people, depending on category, were cultural Western Europeans, plus few Russians here and here. But really, to be honest the very idea of great artists, musicians and writers is eurocentric. Think of it: to be a great man in the realm of culture in civ5-6, one needs to adhere to the way culture worked in Early Modern Western Europe (painting on canvas, European instruments, "secular" books). I'm actually fine with like 30 - 40 % of a game's cultures being European, in industrial era even half, now can we make some tech quotes more interesting than "yet another Anglo - Saxon"?

    Westcentrism in those games is present in
    - Late game architecture
    - Great people
    - Wonders
    - Social policies
    - Tech quotes
    - The very conceptual design of some mechanics, such as every religion basically being Christianity: universal, missionary, egalitarian, mostly very intolerant of other gods but also somewhat separated from the state etc.
    - Inspirations for generic units and buildings being like 90% Western history and culture (where are my fire altars, windcatchers, horse archers?)

    Moderator Action: This forum concerns Humankind. Please stay on topic. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2020
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  10. conorbebe

    conorbebe King

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    A TSL Earth map which is actually a decent size. Maybe also a spectator mode to view AI vs AI matches.
     
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  11. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    TSL Earth map problem is solved by solving the wider problem of mod support and map editor ;)
    Inbuilt spectator mode would be incredibly useful. I'm honestly surprised civ6 didn't introduce this option, seeing how popular this kind of thing is, how useful it would be for modders (for testing things), and how particularly awkward and problematic it is for fans to solve, even using mods.

    But again, I could ask a similar question about five hundred other things which should be in civ6 other than vampires.

    Returning to subject, yeah, ingame AI spectator mode would be amazing. Especially with stuff like replays, statistics, an ability to intervene etc.
     
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  12. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I definitely hope we get a TSL Earth map. Like, a lot.

    The point is how the TSL part would work :p

    I guess that the AI checks for where it's placing its first city and chooses the corresponding civ, then follows "historical" patterns, and on map creation the player can chose a starting position.

    Even if it's not TSL, a good Earth map would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  13. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Where would you as the player start in TSL? Random? Or would you assign a location in the menu?
     
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  14. conorbebe

    conorbebe King

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    This is a good point, I guess I didn't really consider it properly when I made my post. Perhaps you could select a region to begin in, or maybe have it so that you select your starting culture in advance?
     
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  15. TheSpaceCowboy

    TheSpaceCowboy The Gangster of Love

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    I missed watching the evolution of the map and don't understand why Firaxis never brought it back for Civilization VI.

    Some of the small things I'd like to see:
    • The ability to customize Avatars for NPCs, visually and with respect to gameplay tendencies. For instance, being able to create an Avatar that looks like Gandhi whose preferences for selecting a culture follow the Indian line of Harappans -> Mauryans -> Khmer -> (India?), and who's always as pacifist as possible
    • A meta-game of gaining new Avatar items across multiple games by unlocking Achievements. And maybe the first time you complete an era as each of the cultures you permanently unlock a set of Avatar items associated with them.
    • A "Terra" map type where all the major factions start on one landmass and only minor factions start on other, initially inaccessible, landmasses
    • The Earth map having every single natural wonder on it
    • A true start location mode which lets you start in a specific era instead of as Nomads
    • Corporations
     
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  16. Wyvern_Parade

    Wyvern_Parade Warlord

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    Not sure if these count as small things, but

    1. Some kind of worldwide trade market (similar to Endless Legend) that may also include corporations in later eras. Or at least the ability to buy/sell resources with minor factions or independent traders. It makes no sense in Civ that all resource trade is confined to the state level. If I have oil, but no country wants to buy it, I should be able to sell it to a private entity for a profit.

    2. I hope railroads and other forms of mass transportation (shipping, airports, etc) will have more radical economic and civil impacts than they do in Civ 6.
     
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  17. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Combined with the AI actually willing to agressively settle "Americas" as soon as possible, and the continent being so rich it is indeed an optimal strategy ;)

    The game would need three modding abilities to let us truly indulge in TSL madness:
    1) Map editor :p including pre - settling civs already, to make sure they won't damn migrate somewhere else
    2) The possibility to "restrict cultural succession" in several ways, so for example Romans and Greeks may either turn into Byzantium (and only them can do that) or remain themselves in the medieval era.
    3) An ability to unlock more than 10 players and/or an ability to dynamically introduce new players in later eras (that part may be too problematic).

    Anyway, I am currently pleasantly working on the concept of how TSL mod could be designed in this game. It is quirky, but once you solve some initial awkwardness ("where the hell are Etruscans - whatever, I'll just put Phoenicia in Italy instead") Humankind actually allows for cooler "historical games" than Civ, thanks to cultural succession mechanic.
     
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  18. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    This two so much.

    I think worldwide market would be in, it has been in all their games. Plus it would be locked behind a tech, which makes sense.

    About mass transportation I'm not sure, but I definitely hope that the industrial revolution has a huge impact in production and mass transport, and not just an incremental +1 production. Hopefully roads are important as well. I love road building and improvement. I already know it will follow the EL style, which road network is a "building" inside the cities. Let's hope it creates logical connections.
     
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  19. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

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    Agreed x10 but I'd add that I hate with a passion building roads/railroads tile by tile. I know older Civs had "Road to..." and now for some reason later 4X's abandoned it.
     
  20. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I'm not too bothered by the building by tile, but the things I like are:

    - Planning the road network.
    - There should be a cost for building and maintaining in top shape.
    - They should look good and logical (roads in every tile look ugh).

    In general, I love how they are looking in HK, especially inside cities and how they run along rivers. I assume that when doing the building it automatically creates them to connect to city centers on neighboring territories.
     

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