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SMAN's Duchy of Brittany for VP

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by gwennog, Feb 4, 2021.

  1. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I may see a boost instead of a flat bonus when creating cities. Something conditioned by the distance and the state of civilization or of the city that produces ( :c5happy: Happiness or otherwise) at the time the settler is created. Boost of :c5faith: Faith, :c5culture: Culture (or local Culture) and :c5production: Production on another landmass as the capital and :c5culture: Culture and :c5food: Food if on the same. Bonus are inversely proportional to :c5happy: happiness.

    OK for me but perhaps +x% :c5faith: Faith in coastal Cities by Cities in differents landmass.

    Yes, I like this.
    Just, I will see a redistribution of the :c5gold: Gold earned on :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith:Faith, like 5% of :c5gold: Gold converted in :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith:Faith instead of +10 % :c5faith: Faith and :c5culture: Culture in City.

    Yes, I like this too.
    Gain :c5faith: Faith whenever a unit you own dies, scaling with era: Is same as Cemetery building but now I not other idea, or perhaps, a local promotion to ships (+1 sight near the city)
     
  2. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Be careful to not overcomplicate things behind layers of conditions : first, it makes it difficult for the AI to use, and second it makes the kit frustrating. One condition layer maximum per bonus, or it sours the whole thing. You have to choose between the landmass condition or the happiness condition here (or find another type, but not add them one on top of another).
    Basically, for a UA, there should be :
    • 4 types of bonus maximum
    • 1 type of condition layer maximum (by "condition layer", I mean a single condition or a "or" condition)
    • No "and" condition
    • No condition that relies too much on the AI or the map generator
    Examples :
    • Ottomans : 2 types of bonus (yields from international and internal TR) and one condition (the TR ends naturally)
    • France : 3 types of bonus (combat bonus, temporary yields and cultural GP points) and one condition (city conquest)
    • China : 2 types of bonus (WLTKD boost and gold/food in all cities) and one "or" condition (city acquisition or GWork creation)

    Having two conversions into Culture seems overpowered. I think you should choose one of them and stick to it.

    Having a bonus so reliant on map layout is dangerous I think : there is no way to tell the map generator "pls put some islands on my side of the continent so that I can settle them before the Renaissance era". I understand that you want to spice things up a bit, but I don't think it's a good solution (the bonus I proposed in my first suggestion has the advantage of always giving you something even if you don't have islands near you).
     
  3. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    Ok, I understand. Can be a combination of the boost and the flat bonus.

    UA - "Bro Gozh ma Zadoù" (Ancient Land of My Fathers)
    When settling a city, gains a boost of :c5culture: Culture, :c5faith: Faith and :c5production: Production and if on another landmass, +1 of the same yields in the Capital. +20 % :c5faith: Faith in coastal Cities, and gain :c5culture: Culture and GAdmiral points when producing maritime buildings or wonders or naval units, scaling with :c5production: Production cost (around 10 %).
     
  4. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I'm trying to keep all of the unit appearance changes. How do you keep this great work without the unit appearing as a UU?
    I'm going to look at the Ethnic Units mod, as I remember it, that's what it does.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  5. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    Because of the religious part of this kit (and because I love it), I thought about :

    Spoiler Peace theme 1 :

    second piece (4:18) or fourth (11:24)


    or a little more rhythmic (a dance)

    Spoiler Peace theme 2 :

    first piece

    For the War theme, even if I don't know it, the piece of music chosen by Sman (or Gedemo, I don't know) is good although I think scottish (no bombard, very rare in a bagad).
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  6. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    I think you could make it scale with era so that the bonus doesn't become irrelevant when a lot of new islands become available in the renaissance era (but keep it low early). That aside, I like what you did here with the compromise. I think that at this point the best way to see if all of this fits well is to directly test it, so I won't bother you more with it. I'm already enough of a contrarian.

    Don't want to be the perpetual downer (it's your mod and you do what you want with it), but VP can be already quite heavy, so adding new models for non unique units is a risk. Maybe there is a compromise to be made, with a two file solution :
    • The first file would contain the base mod without the new models for non-unique units, but has in itself the necessary code to use them if they are present.
    • The add-on (which won't be about gameplay elements, and so won't need to be updated as often) is simply a file containing the new 3d models that you put beside the first and only requires to be moved into the base mod's file to have an effect.
    Because I don't know enough about coding, I don't know if that's realistic, but if that works it would allow you to easily provide a base, lighter version, of the mod, and the "Breton special add-on" with additionnal 3d models and even specific music tracks if you want.

    Personally, I prefer the second piece (but like the third and fourth also). Do you have a preference ? The only thing that could be problematic is the radical change of tone between the peace and the war theme
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  7. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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  8. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I saw it like that too. Thanks for getting back on track :)

    It's a good idea, although at the moment I don't know how to achieve it. Anyway, I will have to find to honor all the work done by Sman.

    In fact, I prefer the Peace Theme 2 (the dance), I still have my parents' vinyl and bought the CD but, for a Peace Theme to Civ, I find like you that track two is adequate, and there is a great wealth of variations on the score of the organ.

    For the War theme, I'm always looking for a song among the Bagadoù that is warlike enough, the presence of the bombards will allow a more obvious link between the two themes (if the entry is not too punchy :lol:), perhaps:

    Spoiler War-raok :


    but not completely convinced.

    Well, there is a mod to write.
     
  9. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    Ok, absolute majority
     
  10. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Well, it has its qualities, but it sounds a little "too much". That said, what I propose here is also maybe too punchy.

    Spoiler Bagad de Lann-Bihoué :




    Of course. It would be a shame if the original spark was gone. :)

    If you need any help with the testing part, I am used to doing that kind of thing.

    Chañs vat !
     
  11. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    This Sman's mod with so many unique models is like a civ with 'Ethnic Units' embedded. It can be enjoyable. (I will :))
    Now, what @Hinin is pointing out about memory consumption is pertinent.
    An add-on or 2 versions of the mod is probably the right way. Good luke @gwennog :hammer2:
     
  12. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    Good choice but not yet perfect, there is no urgency, at some point, a song will click.

    Thank you

    Yes, it seems the easiest. Thank you.
     
  13. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I edited the outline but it's still under construction :crazyeye:
     
  14. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    First online version :)

    All the units worked by SMAN are not incorporated, I am working on a version including the complete design.
     
    Hinin likes this.
  15. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    I've just done two quick games with Britanny yesterday and this morning (one full Tradition/Artistry/God of Beauty, and one Progress/Featly/God of Commerce), and here are some thoughts and nitpicks.

    First and foremost, I wanted to congratulate you : you've finished the civ quite quickly, and I've found no bug whatsovever for now. Brav !

    Spoiler Me talking and nitpicking too much :
    About the civ's icon/art/music themes :
    • The Peace theme fits really well. Nice.
    • It's a bit ironic knowing that I was the one giving the idea of using the Marche du pays de Retz for the war theme, but I think that it has several problems when ingame. First, even if it saddens me to say that since I love cornemuse, I think the music is too loud and noisy for a game like civ. Second, the version you used is cut midway, why is bizarre (I understand you wanted to avoid the applauds at the end, but I think you could have done that just before them, and not so soon). After testing E Garnison by Denez Prigent ingame, I've found it fits better, but that's only my opinion.
    • The civ's icon is a bit too pixelated on the sides, the hermine is not distinct enough (look at other civ's icon, where is a bit of shading done to accentuate the symbole), and the civ's colors are swapped when compared to what is in the game.
    • When using mods like JFD's cultural diversity, the civ is assimilated to Britain. It's only a minor detail, but making it so it is perceived as Celtic instead would add a little polish.
    • Personally, I don't really like how Anne de Bretagne looks. I understand the great efforts behind it (and so shouldn't be criticizing here), but I think she looks quite spectral.

    About the UA :
    • I think the yields from settling should scale with era (both for the settled city and the permanent yields for the capital city if on another landmass). Basically the problem right now is that in the early game there is often not that accessible islands that are good enough and near enough to be settled, and so the second part of the bonus is wasted : later, when you gain access to the ocean, the reward for doing so is too negligible to be insteresting.
    • There is not visual indicator of the culture/GAdmiral points gained when building naval units/buildings/wonders (and so the only way to know when you win GAdmiral points is to check directly the GA jauge) : since you already use a visual indicator for the Machtiern Tredeof promotion (which I'll talk about later), I think one here would add clarity.
    • Does the 20 % bonus faith for coastal cities affect instant yields ? I ask this because, if not, the Kroaz Pell's effect would be anti-synergetic here. I'm still thinking about a solution, if one is really needed.
    About the Porzh-iliz :
    • The Kroaz Pell seems a little too unreliable, since both its yields depends on factors outside of your controle (map generation and AI war behaviour). For the faith part, it's not really a problem, since the faith gained is high enough to have real value (by the way what is your formula for calculating the faith gain ?), but for the gold from Coast part, it really is useful only for Sea resources (for basic coast tiles are not good enough at this point of the game to gain from only 1 gold). Because of this, one idea I have would be to put the gold on Land tiles next to the sea (so where Polynesia puts its Moai) : that way, the bonus would be more reliable, while still retaining the theme of fishing communities on the coast.
    • There is no civilopedia article for the Kalvar and the Kroaz Pell, which I think is a bit sad knowing how interesting each element is. If you want, I can write description/strategy/history for the two once their design is finalized.
    About the Machtiern :
    • It's a real lifesaver to have this unit : because of its potency as a defendor and how easy it is to mass it (as long as you have Horses), you can focus far more on your infrastructure in the Classical era and rush Currency whenever you see a potential threat arise. That said, I think the faith cost (which is the same as for a Missionary) is a little bit too low. Maybe an increase by 10 % ? What do you think ?
    • The Tredeof promotion adds too much visual elements each turn (a lot of visual indicators each turn) and becomes very quickly irrelevant yield-wise. I understand the idea behind it though. An idea to alleviate the problem, keep the promotion relevant and avoid putting a dozen popups each turn could be to make so that the unit doesn't have a maintenance cost when beginning the turn within your territory.
    • The unit icon is really nice. :)
    • The unit art makes us think that it is a infantry replacement and, combined with the 3d model, makes it a bit anachronistic with the "early medieval" feel the unit is supposed to represent because of the moment it is unlocked.
    About the Barenton Fountain :
    • It's a deceptively powerful UC, especially when going for a peaceful Tradition start (since you can have cultural specialists very early, and gain a lot of percentage increase to GP generation since a lot of AIs like to make DoF early on). That said, I think it's putting a little too much eggs in the Traditions basket, and so becomes anti-synergetic with the UA, which helps more wide playstyle. Did you have other ideas for this ?
    • For the art, I think the blue you use for the water is a bit too dark. What is your opinion on this ?


    All that said, don't think I dislike your work. I'm so happy that you not only could find a project you likes this much, but that you also coded so quickly and with no bug as of now. I love what you did there, and it's because I care that I allow myself to bother you this much. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  16. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    Thank you very much for the support and for already testing the mod.

    There is no problem, who doesn't want to expose himself to criticism does not publish his work. And I see nothing other than constructive elements in your analysis, elements that I can accept or reject but in any case, supported.

    Spoiler To the Advisor :

    It's funny, I wasn't hot for this track but now that it's in the game I'm quite addicted and every once in a while I feel like starting a war to hear it :smoke:. But I understandlet it get out of the orthodoxy of civ musics (but I'm not a good critic, I rarely play with music).

    No, the track is complete, As it is long, maybe it is cut?

    OK, I like Denez and I will gladly switch to E Garnison, but I will miss the percussions to move my armies forward.
    There is also Gortoz a ran which is the music of "Black Hawk Down" :

    This is the original work of SMAN, I intentionally did not change it. The goal was to reuse as much material as possible, I have already digressed a lot.

    OK, I have not touched the mod support but I will find and fix it. I have to see how it works.

    I'm not a fan either but this is the original mod.

    The yield from settling are scale with era (Trait_YieldFromSettle) but not the permanent yields for the capital (lua add a dummy building). Wouldn't that be too powerful if it was scale with era? 1,1,2,3...

    OK, very good idea.

    No, it's a flat Yield modifier (Building_YieldModifiers).

    For Faith From death, I choose a base 3, scaling with era (Building_YieldFromDeath).

    For once, I'm not going to agree with you :blush:.
    When you acquire the Kroaz Pell, you already have access to the harbor which adds +1 :c5gold: gold and +1 :c5production: production, with the +1 :c5food: food bonus of lighthouse, sea tiles are interesting, especially, indeed for cities on small islands. With imperialism, they become truly powerful and autonomous.
    But the real reason is that programming your proposal (which I find interesting) is a real headache. The only solution I have found is to create a dummy feature on each coastal land to allocate the bonus to it with a lot of lua to control that. Terrain Coastal land does not exist.

    Yes they do exist and I think they are well written (but you can complete). But given that the building "does not exist" before the renaissance, the only access is by the Porzh-Iliz (need to build).
    I have not found other solutions.

    Yes, I like the two units of this civ very well. For the faith cost, I increased it before posting but without replaying it to test. OK to increase by 10%.

    Yes, I agree, the promotion is more symbolic than effective (in readability and performance). Your proposal is interesting and keep the spirit.

    Strongly agree but this is all from the original mod (except unit flag, it's me :)) and as the goal was to keep the units working, I didn't touch it. But therefore I will maybe do it for this unit because you have the same feelings as me.

    I admit that I don't analyze synergies like a lot of people do on the forum (with a lot of hindsight and skills), I play with feeling a lot. To be honest, I never play military and I mainly like cultural victories (hence the choice of civs that I modify). So, I didn't even think of trying Brittany other than Tradition (with Artistic second, and rationalism or imperialism third.).
    I don't see the point of spreading out too much, just a few distant cities for resources and control of sea passes and on the other hand, cultivating good relations with everyone to influence them culturally more easily and in addition to benefit from the DOFs and DP that arise from good relationships.
    In my last culturally won game with Brittany, I only waged a maritime war in Askia the tyrant, cutting off its trade routes, blocking its overseas colonizations and above all by freeing all the coastal cities of its victims to return them and make me lots of friends who opened their borders to me to welcome my Breizh Cola and my Kouign amann :smoke:.

    In other words, I really like the Barenton fountain, especially +25 % :c5greatperson: Great People generation in this city, increased by 10 % for each Declaration of Friendship and Defensive Pacts for Great Cultural People and +1 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5faith: Faith for all Cultural Specialists in your Empire.
    But of course, I'm really ready to discuss it.:thumbsup:

    Yes, I agree, it should be clearer and brighter.


    Once again, thank you Hinin for your feedback, I will correct the points where we are OK (the most numerous) and am ready to discuss the others.

    One last point, I have adjusted the flavors and biases by following the very interesting discussion in this thread:

    Community Ideas: Diplomacy Flavors for AI Leaders

    Could you see if you agree with the values entered?
     
  17. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    I'll make something for that. Couple of weeks
     
  18. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Spoiler A lot of answers :
    I perfectly understand the feeling (it's the same for me whenever I play England for example). In the end, it's just my personnal opinion, and nothing stops me from listening E Garnison on my phone while going to war. :lol:

    Maybe. I'll look at it to see where it stops exactly.

    Although Black Hawk Down is excellent in its own right, I personally think it's the opposite excess : not enough rythm, too contemplative. Well, I'll stop being a contrarian and give another proposition (I'm kidding... or am I ? :shifty::shifty::shifty:).

    It's really just a nitpick. I tend to use JFD's cultural diversity (without the gameplay changes) and the Historical religion mods for roleplay, but if it requires more than the smallest amount of effort, don't bother with it. You've already done a great job.

    I think keeping things low is fine (since later in the game there are more and more stacking yield modifiers), so what you propose seems good.

    Ok. I'll think about that part and come back whenever I have something more useful than "there is a problem here".

    Ok. Just know that with the Ceremonial Burial founder belief, I was gaining more than 100 faith when losing a Machtiern (which made buying a new one significantly less painful). It's interesting that you can use a GP-focused founder belief for military purposes (it makes Tradition/Zealotry Britanny viable, and I'm all for it).

    I approve you disagreeing with me ! Pineappledan and me disagree all the time, and I wouldn't have it any other way. :lol:

    Sry for bothering you with this without looking into it enough first. I'll find and read them before showing my face again.

    The goal is to make buying the unit an actual investment and so reduce the chance of someone abusing the fact that the unit unlocks very early to go on a rampaging spree (although I think I'll try Authority Britanny one day :smoke:).

    I'll keep thinking about it, but it might be the easiest solution.

    Well, once again it's only about aesthetics and polish, but I personally would like to stand proudly next to

    Are they already in the version you posted yesterday. If so, I'll look at it this week.

    Once again, Astérix est là ! :lol:
     
  19. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    Yesss, thank you and like @Hinin, Astérix est là !
     
  20. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    OK @Hinin, I have thought about it and my answer is very closed. Quite the opposite of Vox Populi possibilities :o.
    So, I tried Brittany with progress is indeed, the building is really not helpful.

    Spoiler One Idea :
    Barenton Fountain (replaces National Monument)
    Available at Writing instead of Drama and Poetry

    +2 :c5culture: Culture and +5 :c5food: Food (instead of +1 :c5culture: Culture)
    Source of Fresh water
    2 :greatwork: Great Work of Writing Slots (+4 :tourism: Tourism and +10 :c5goldenage: Golden Age points when themed) (instead of 1 GWArt or Artifact slot)
    +1 :c5culture: Culture for all Specialists in your Empire
    +1 :c5faith: Faith for Councils
    +1 :c5food: Food for Farms
    +20 % :c5greatperson: Great People generation in this city, increased by 5 % for each Declaration of Friendship and Defensive Pacts for Great People (10% for Great Cultural People)
    Receive 50 :c5goldenage: Golden Age points whenever you unlock a Policy, scaling with Era.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021

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