Thanks,
@YINGCHENG &
@DauntlessGuy! Testing is going well. Made 1 game through the Classical Era, no hints of crashes. The balance problem is getting better when I added a science yield to the Sundial and Royal Parapegma (Ancient Era) buildings, and change the yield on the Cairn from 2 culture to 1 culture, 1 science. The Ancient Era "feels" like it's progressing more like it should. On a Quick game, it took 80 turns to reach the Classical Era, which is about 700 A.D. according to the date in the top panel. I'll need to recalibrate that next. The mod really is starting to feel like it's about done, with the exception with the balance problem, and that one we'll all be working on for a while even after release, I'm afraid.
One of the problems with science generation is a setting in the Defines (basic game settings) table called, "SCIENCE_PER_POPULATION". It is normally set to 1. For AWAW, I cut that to 0.5, so civs generate half the amount of science based on population. I did this to mainly lower the chance of runaway science steamrolling at WAW endgame. I may add this setting to the WAW Compatibility script, so that this number is cut only if WAW is active, and leave it normal for games with only AWAW.
FWIW, I definitely plan on nerfing the heck out of science in the next version of World at War. I also plan on lowering the cost of the Future War Era techs in hopes to avoid the "tech cost overflow" problem. Those techs may be cheaper, but the nerf to science generating buildings will be more. I've seen in many of my Epic-speed games on huge maps that these last few techs only requiring 2-3 turns to discover. The next WAW will try to make a change to that.
I'm also adding changes to the game settings to encourage the AI to play wider than normal. For a mod with the words "World at War" it just seems like a requirement. So, a more aggressively settling AI (with probably a few extra free Settlers at game start), will mean when you meet them, they'll probably be wider than you are at that point.
On strat resources: I hear what you're both saying, and I agree for the most part. My problem is that once a human player starts to dominate in BNW, it's not difficult to simply roll over the map, one AI civ at a time, until the game is easily won. AI civs rarely cooperate to kill a growing human menace. Have seen it a bit, but most often, they simply wait to be picked-off, one-by-one. I added the "gunpowder fix" script to make this rolling a lot harder for human players. AI civs also get "free" mercenary units to make them harder to conquer. Hopefully, these steps can make them a better challenge. IIRC, in my "WAW WW2 Scenario on Any Map" mod, I added a "diplomatic adjustment" function that will force AI civs to declare war on a human civ if they are running away with the game. May have to relook at that one.
For human players, I don't plan on doing anything to help them when resources are not nearby. You mentioned it yourself: that's what aggressive trade networks and wars for resources are for. It's been this way for millennia, so it feels accurate, and TBH, the human players don't normally need much help to roll over the AI. In the early AWAW design, I thought about adding a building that would "create" the hardwood resource (maybe creates only 1, and the civ can only build 4 max). I thought about doing this for hardwood, horse, iron, lead. As I mentioned earlier, I'm already doing this for Gunpowder (Commissariat & Artillery Foundry). Having 4 iron or horse or hardwood won't allow you to dominate the map, but it will at least provide a bit of an opportunity to actively defend your lands against a better-resourced AI empire. Will probably add those in before initial BETA is released. Heck, I just this morning changed the Potter so it doesn't require a Clay resource to create 1 Pottery resource. Doesn't even have to be near Clay. There are just too many buildings requiring Pottery to build, and not nearly enough Clay on the map to satisfy all of these requirements.
To give you some ideas about strat resources, on my latest game, Standard map size, 8 major civs. There were 72 total hardwood resources on the entire map. Not 72 tiles, 72 total resources (on about 48 tiles). However, the Hardwood Lumberyard (Classical, build limit 4) can create 4 more for a civ that already has a tile with a Hardwood resource. The Medieval Sawmill does the same. So, on average, each Civ could reasonably hope to generate about 10 hardwood resources. I can raise/lower tile instances and amounts per tile later, based on recommendations from what you're seeing during testing. I want hardwood to be a problem - no large navy without it. None of my test games so far have seen much naval action, so I'm not sure if the current numbers are good or not. If the AI is having trouble keeping up, I'll probably add hardwood to the "AI Gunpowder Management" script, that performs a similar function (a few free hardwoods every 10 turns or so for AI civs that are in the bottom half of the game score table). The other strat resource of Iron may also make it into this function. Basically, the AI can use a lot of help...
The latest versions of the spreadsheets have been updated with resource requirements. Basically, all "late" Era units need something. But, as we get into the Renaissance+Enlightenment Eras, more of the other units require something as well - mostly gunpowder and hardwood. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten that far testing to see how this all plays out. Maybe in the next couple of days I'll know more.
Pantheons are usually underwhelming, and I love your suggestion about putting some "beef" into them. I'll do exactly that once I turn the game over to Live Tuner. Live Tuner is a tool that will "play" Civ5 games automatically (it basically converts all human players [almost always player 0] into AI civs, and lets the game run all by itself). I mostly use this to stress the mod/game, to make sure the mod is stable, especially with demanding settings (Huge map, Marathon speed). I'll periodically check on the game, review the LUA logs, etc., just to see how the mod is performing. However, while the game is running in the background, I'll also be working on the dreaded "STEAM Package" - which is the collection of slides/documentation that are posted on STEAM, so that new players, er, testers will ne able to understand what the mod does or at least is trying to do. In fact, the reason for this rather loquacious post is because Live Tuner is currently trying to get a test game from GT 0 into Medieval so that I can check the mod and see if the date on the top panel looks anything like it should (Medieval Era = 800-1399 A.D., that is).
It is possible for any belief to add a resource of any kind and any quantity. It's currently an empty table, so base BNW doesn't use it. Doesn't mean we can't do something with it. The Religions add-on I'm working on right now adds 7 new religions, as well 5 pantheon, 19 founders, enhanced, and 3 reformation beliefs (all of these can be redistributed between the various belief categories, especially if we're changing their numbers). I'll post details in a bit, and I'll also look for ways to improve items and resources using these. But, if you have any suggestions about how to improve pantheons/founder/enhanced/reformation beliefs, please let me know. These kinds of things save me a tremendous amount of time, and is greatly appreciated. Thanks for the great idea, BTW!
Additionally, the suggestion about find a purpose for Gunpowder, post-Enlightenment Era is inspired! For BNW, I could add a resource requirement for Military Academy and Military Base. May not sound like much, but in wide empires in the second half of the game, this could take up a lot of Gunpowder. If we look at WAW buildings (and I will!), we're looking at Munitions Factory, Weapons Factory, Coastal Defenses, Surface Warship Dockyard, Advanced Warfare Facility (5 total). So, if you have 7 buildings that now require Gunpowder in the second half of the game, I think you'll quickly reach a point where you have to decide carefully where/when to use this resource. Thanks - I never even considered something like this!
I suppose only play testing will ultimately show the nuanced balance problems that might arise
My, but you've hit the nail on the head on this one. I keep bringing it up, because when I release this beast, a lot of people will play it, see all the balance problems, then say, "THIS SUCKS" and down-vote the mod before others even get a chance to play the "baseline" version. This mod adds sooooo much content, that seeing how all these new shiny things work together (or against each other), and how far things get out of hand by the time a player hits Industrial. I mean, I've tested all the new toys at the "unit" level - which means I've tested each building, improvement, resource, tech, and units, and all of them individually work and don't crash the game (I make no claims about typos, however - there are probably hundreds...). The balance problem appears when you pull all these things together. Even small design errors can become game-breaking over time, especially when you stress the game engine on Huge maps on Epic/Marathon speeds.
It's one of the reasons I've put soooooo much detail about the design of the mod in this forum as we've progressed through it. I'm trying to sensitize anyone brave enough to BETA test the mod to the fact that, while I think everything is designed fairly-well, the proof is in the testing. And by informing you of all the things going on behind the stage, you'll be a bit better prepared to watch out for game behaviors you might not normally care about or notice.
Thanks for all the suggestions - they are appreciated! Keep 'em coming!
