So beakers don't overflow... does production?

[The Great Apple]

Just discovered when peeking in the strategy forums that beakers don't overflow from research, meaning a good deal can be wasted and micromanaging things like scientist specialists is required for best play. I had assumed that this was something we'd never see again in a Civ game after Civ 4's solution.

Does anybody know if production overflows? That would be even more of a pain to micromanage...

 

[Ayt]

Production does overflow.

 

[clearbeard]

Pretty sure beakers not overflowing is on the list of recognized bugs, so hopefully it'll be fixed in the "big patch" due out in the next week or so.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Production overflows, rest easy. Its just poorly represented in the UI.

I really, really hope the beaker thing is a bug.

 

[Disgustipated]

I have a feeling research not overflowing is a design decision not a bug. But they may "fix" it if enough people complain about it.

 

[dexters]

I'm fine with it not overflowing. One suggestion is to simply convert some of the overflow to gold. Grease the wheels so to speak. But I think the real impetus for keeping research overflow in is now essentially gone.

The reason there was an overflow mechanic in Civ4 was because science was tied directly to your gold/commerce output and sliders. So moving workers.slider around tiles in Civ3, players were able to micro the savings. They wanted to remove that abstraction/player micromanagement so overflow was introduced in 4.

Either way works.

 

[SewerStarFish]

It seems odd that everything else has been simplified in CivV. I've got no problem micromanaging but I think they'll come up with some solution.

dexters has a reasonable compromise.

 

[The Great Apple]

The reason there was an overflow mechanic in Civ4 was because science was tied directly to your gold/commerce output and sliders. So moving workers.slider around tiles in Civ3, players were able to micro the savings. They wanted to remove that abstraction/player micromanagement so overflow was introduced in 4.

It's obvious why they did it. What is not obvious is why they didn't in Civ 5. The micromanagement is still there with scientist specialists, and, later on, science yield from tiles.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I've seen some people micromanage to death to save those beakers. That's not something anybody really wants to do. At least the slider was relatively minor micromanaging. Scientist management in every city is way over the top.

 

[AlpsStranger]

I've seen some people micromanage to death to save those beakers. That's not something anybody really wants to do. At least the slider was relatively minor micromanaging. Scientist management in every city is way over the top.

This is precisely what I was thinking. If you are running a certain type of empire this can become quite a burden, actually.

 

[dexters]

It's obvious why they did it. What is not obvious is why they didn't in Civ 5. The micromanagement is still there with scientist specialists, and, later on, science yield from tiles.

right,that escaped my thought as I've not tried the rationalism path in any games yes.

I still think some of the science, maybe as much as 50% (this is a lot of gold if you're talking overflow of 300-600 beakers) s/b converted to gold as a compromise. Not
that I'm opposed to overflow, but I do like the idea of a gold conversion.

There was a direct exchange rate when science was slider based in the past, but now that there isn't, 50% on the ridiculous beakers we can get in the late game is a lot of gold.

 

[ohioastronomy]

If your goal is to minimize the rewards for fussy dial-twiddling, a goal that I very much support, then you want overflow.

 

[Roxlimn]

If we minimize the rewards for "fussy-dial twiddling," then wouldn't that be dundundun, yet more simplification of the game?

I don't like dial twiddling, to be honest, but if you don't like simplicity, then why argue for simplification?

 

[ohioastronomy]

If we minimize the rewards for "fussy-dial twiddling," then wouldn't that be dundundun, yet more simplification of the game?

I don't like dial twiddling, to be honest, but if you don't like simplicity, then why argue for simplification?

It's pretty clear that the designers wanted to simplify things, which makes it very likely that the lack of overflow is a bug rather than a feature. That was my point. Adjusting a global slider is much better than having to tune a lot of cities to get to the same end, so the net result of the new system is more of what they said they wanted less of.

I'd classify shuffling things around to speed production up as "annoying" micromanagement. I'd classify building things in the right order, in a way that differs between cities according to location, "good" micromanagement. So not all micro is the same for me. And I'm fine with some going away while other parts stick around.

 

[alanpdodd]

Overflow seems perfectly simple and workable, just think of it as completing research 6 months into a turn and the new tech being researched retrospectively from this point when you pick the tech.

 

[Jharii]

Considering how overpowered great scientists are, I don't see a problem with no overflowing beakers. If you are going to fix one, please fix both.

 

[Stoney the I]

i swear when i opened my civ box, bugs came out! I cant play this game without a newspaper close.

seriously, not having overflow in research is a serious oversight, but i guess even with the long list of those in place, more will be found. lets hope they get fixed.

thx for sharing the info. luckily the Ai is dumb so you dont have to min/max every turn for best result to win at deity.

 

[clearbeard]

Considering how overpowered great scientists are, I don't see a problem with no overflowing beakers. If you are going to fix one, please fix both.

Great scientists are a curious oversight, especially considering that great engineers have a max hammers provided when rushing a wonder. Aught to be simple to make scientists behave the same way.

Reminds me of something: Does anyone know if all excess hammers from a great engineer are carried over? Or do you just apply 100% of the rush turn's base production to the next turn?

 

[Zechnophobe]

If we minimize the rewards for "fussy-dial twiddling," then wouldn't that be dundundun, yet more simplification of the game?

I don't like dial twiddling, to be honest, but if you don't like simplicity, then why argue for simplification?

Complexity and micromanagement are different things. Complexity can lead to micromanagement, but doesn't necessarily.

It's like Settler production. In civ 5 and 4, you use both food overflow, and hammers, to produce settlers. In civ 4, when you build a settler, the city (if still in default mode) will change the worked tiles to maximize food + hammers, while still making 0 or better food growth. In civ 5 it doesn't do that, so you have to manually change them if you want to produce as fast as possible.

Is that more complex? No. Is it more micromanagement? Yes.

The issue with science not overflowing, especially as science per turn starts dwarfing research costs, is that it gives a very potent knob to turn, for something that could so easily be done automatically. Also, it isn't really more complex, because the most effective route is still fairly apparent. No more decision making, just more work.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Great scientists are a curious oversight, especially considering that great engineers have a max hammers provided when rushing a wonder. Aught to be simple to make scientists behave the same way.

Reminds me of something: Does anyone know if all excess hammers from a great engineer are carried over? Or do you just apply 100% of the rush turn's base production to the next turn?

The problem isn't based on a set limit. There's nothing wrong with rushing a late tech and getting it in one turn. The problem is in rushing several techs in a row to push ahead to get either an absurd military advantage or unlock a new SP tree (the former being cheesier than the latter).

I thought of some formula that would be the average of all your current techs plus 200 beakers. No idea how that would end up in practice (I know it'll cut down on early lightbulbing to riflemen, but it might be too restrictive later). But an idea like that would work. Basically, limit yourself to only popping into the next era, not several eras ahead.