So has Firaxis given up on BE?

[Gorbles]

The notion that developers deserve hate because their product isn't as good as it could be in the eyes of some consumers is . . . troubling. It rationalises hatred, which I think that generally (socially and psychologically) agreed to be a Bad Thing.

Now if you want to express that as "discontent", it'd be much more fair, but arguably the playerbase on here and on Steam are doing a good job of expressing it.

Firaxis aren't going to win everyone round. Firaxis could release ten more patches for BE, not hit certain issues in a certain way and people would still call BE a "pathetic pile of crap". In my opinion, they can't win when given such ultimatums.

Nor should they try.

 

[Gamewizard]

1st world problems, woe is us, right?

And although I am upset they broke the questing system with the patch, a community member was kind enough to fix it in short time via modding, so it isn't that big of a problem.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

1st world problems, woe is us, right?

And although I am upset they broke the questing system with the patch, a community member was kind enough to fix it in short time via modding, so it isn't that big of a problem.

Yup. However using that mod I've found myself to be gaining affinity levels too quickly after the early slow going. Maybe there was a method to their madness in not having as many quests be available. This seems like a poor solution though and likely a stopgap measure while they work on something better.

 

[JokerJace]

1st world problems, woe is us, right?

Right. Having something to eat and to drink and not living in constant fear because of a civil war deprives me of the right to complain about other things. I agree. In fact, whenever someone complains about anything (no matter the context, obviously), one should first check whether there are more important issues to discuss somewhere on the world in that very moment. And if that is not the case, only then should the complaint be addressed. Independent from moral responsibility, competence and jurisdiction. That is a BRILLIANT system!

 

[Gamewizard]

Yup. However using that mod I've found myself to be gaining affinity levels too quickly after the early slow going. Maybe there was a method to their madness in not having as many quests be available. This seems like a poor solution though and likely a stopgap measure while they work on something better.

True, you will probably get an extra 3 or 4 affinity levels from the extra quests, but this allows you to explore the tech tree more since you don't need to beeline affinity only techs. Probably makes the game easier, so I could see why min/maxers would get bored with it.

Right. Having something to eat and drink and not living in constant fear because of a civil war deprives me of the right to complain about other things. I agree. In fact, whenever someone complains about anything, one should first check whether there are more important issues to discuss somewhere on the world in that very moment. And if that is not the case, only then should the complaint be addressed. That is a BRILLIANT system!

I didn't say you couldn't speak your mind. I just think it is funny how much time you spend hating rather than playing something you do enjoy.

 

[JokerJace]

True, you will probably get an extra 3 or 4 affinity levels from the extra quests, but this allows you to explore the tech tree more since you don't need to beeline affinity only techs. Probably makes the game easier, so I could see why min/maxers would get bored with it.

I didn't say you couldn't speak your mind. I just think it is funny how much time you spend hating rather than playing something you do enjoy.

I guess others invest more time in quietly modding out their dissatisfaction. If that people were more vocal, we had a better chance on official solutions to many issues.

On another note: I always thought that 'first world problems' phrase was incredibly stupid. No offense.

 

[Ryika]

Being vocal is perfectly fine, especially when giving constructive criticism. Just repeating ones opinion again and again in threads that don't even ask for ones opinion is rather silly.

Don't want to bash you or something, but looking at your post history I find mostly very grim posts even in threads like this one: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=542128

Title is "Who else finds CivBE fun", people post rather constructive, down-to-earth stuff, then comes your post: "I don't." - doesn't help anyone, doesn't change anything. Just makes these forums a worse atmosphere for people who actually enjoy the game.

 

[JokerJace]

Actually, I have explained my dissatisfaction many times. By now Firaxis should know what's wrong with their game. So letting them know we still haven't forgotten that they still haven't done anything significant to improve it is more helpful than repeating the already very profound appraisal. So yes, once every two weeks or so - when checking on the game's state - I post about my dissatisfaction. And that's certainly more helpful than ignoring the issues blissfully. Or just dropping the game altogether.

 

[Ryika]

Actually, I have explained my dissatisfaction many times. By now Firaxis should know what's wrong with their game. So letting them know we still haven't forgotten that they still haven't done anything significant to improve the game is more helpful than repeating the already very profound appraisal.

If you want to make sure to show them that you have not forgotten do so in threads that are actually made for this. Posting such posts in threads as the one linked above is just letting off steam at the expense of others.

 

[JokerJace]

It's not my job to contribute to an atmosphere that is 'pro CivBE'. Especially if I don't share that sentiment. Also, I don't think that any of the ten or so people that praised the game in that thread were hurt by my statement. But you are right. Since the patch most of my forum activity consists of showing colour, since I'm not really that 'fanatic' about this particular game. I would like to be, though. Hence my comments. Because everybody praising the game for some reason that eludes me, reduces the chances of that ever happening.

 

[Jingo7]

Civ5 is dreadful. Firaxis are as bad as the worst of them. Abandon ship mates.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

True, you will probably get an extra 3 or 4 affinity levels from the extra quests, but this allows you to explore the tech tree more since you don't need to beeline affinity only techs. Probably makes the game easier, so I could see why min/maxers would get bored with it.

Not needing to beeline affinity tech just means I can beeline the end wonder earlier. They either need to make it so getting to the end wonder early doesn't help, or so getting it early isn't possible.

 

[leif erikson]

True, you will probably get an extra 3 or 4 affinity levels from the extra quests, but this allows you to explore the tech tree more since you don't need to beeline affinity only techs. Probably makes the game easier, so I could see why min/maxers would get bored with it.

I didn't say you couldn't speak your mind. I just think it is funny how much time you spend hating rather than playing something you do enjoy.

I guess others invest more time in quietly modding out their dissatisfaction. If that people were more vocal, we had a better chance on official solutions to many issues.

On another note: I always thought that 'first world problems' phrase was incredibly stupid. No offense.

Being vocal is perfectly fine, especially when giving constructive criticism. Just repeating ones opinion again and again in threads that don't even ask for ones opinion is rather silly.

Don't want to bash you or something, but looking at your post history I find mostly very grim posts even in threads like this one: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=542128

Title is "Who else finds CivBE fun", people post rather constructive, down-to-earth stuff, then comes your post: "I don't." - doesn't help anyone, doesn't change anything. Just makes these forums a worse atmosphere for people who actually enjoy the game.

Actually, I have explained my dissatisfaction many times. By now Firaxis should know what's wrong with their game. So letting them know we still haven't forgotten that they still haven't done anything significant to improve it is more helpful than repeating the already very profound appraisal. So yes, once every two weeks or so - when checking on the game's state - I post about my dissatisfaction. And that's certainly more helpful than ignoring the issues blissfully. Or just dropping the game altogether.

If you want to make sure to show them that you have not forgotten do so in threads that are actually made for this. Posting such posts in threads as the one linked above is just letting off steam at the expense of others.

It's not my job to contribute to an atmosphere that is 'pro CivBE'. Especially if I don't share that sentiment. Also, I don't think that any of the ten or so people that praised the game in that thread were hurt by my statement. But you are right. Since the patch most of my forum activity consists of showing colour, since I'm not really that 'fanatic' about this particular game. I would like to be, though. Hence my comments. Because everybody praising the game for some reason that eludes me, reduces the chances of that ever happening.

Moderator Action: Calling someone one that "hates" is trolling. The next set of posts quoted are mostly trolling because you are all talking to and about each other. It is time to stop this and get back to the subject of the thread. Constructive criticism is certainly more helpful than some of this stuff. Talking about one another is trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Hail]

Civ5 is dreadful. Firaxis are as bad as the worst of them. Abandon ship mates.

Moderator Action: Smilie only posts are considered Spam. Please discuss the topic of the thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kutuzov]

If that people were more vocal, we had a better chance on official solutions to many issues.

By now Firaxis should know what's wrong with their game. So letting them know we still haven't forgotten that they still haven't done anything significant to improve it is more helpful than repeating the already very profound appraisal. So yes, once every two weeks or so - when checking on the game's state - I post about my dissatisfaction. And that's certainly more helpful than ignoring the issues blissfully. Or just dropping the game altogether.

Because everybody praising the game for some reason that eludes me, reduces the chances of that ever happening.

The idea that people who enjoy a game are harming the development of that game is absolutely absurd. There are game forums I frequent where fans are largely happy and positive with their game and provide constructive criticism and the yet, the designers continue to work happily on their game.

People who are enjoying the game do not 'ignore the issues blissfully'. There's not a single game on my hard drive or on Steam that does not have any bugs in it or could not do with further improvement in some way. Yet I am able to play most of these games and have a really good time doing so in spite of them.

I know of at least one game designer who has admitted that he likes to read a positive, glowing post from time to time and to have his ego 'stroked' as it helps to motivate him to continue to work on his game. Since no PC game is without problems, they are all working hard to fix bugs, solve tech issues, etc as long as there is the funding for them to do so and a bit of praise from time to time is like a little ray of sunshine in what might otherwise be a gloomy sea of nagativity.

The ego stroking absolutely does not encourage him to stop working and it should not bother anyone that some folks feel like offering a bit of positive feedback to the developers from time to time. If you can't offer any of it yourself, or contribute anything positive, you should not be concerned that people who do will somehow prevent or discourage the developers from fixing their game. Who knows, it might even spur him on to achieve more because he is feeling good.

 

[player1 fanatic]

And although I am upset they broke the questing system with the patch, a community member was kind enough to fix it in short time via modding, so it isn't that big of a problem.

I just do not like anymore to be invested in mods that fix games.

Usually, in past, if I got invested in such mods, it resulted in me myself starting focusing to make bug-fix mods myself. I'm perfectionist, that's my flaw. I do not install such mods before reviewing all "code changes" first. And then, I'm invested. I start finding more and more hidden bugs... And few months later, then I realize I haven't played the game I wanted to like, and just did the modding work, improving something for free.

I do not want to do that anymore. I'm now software engineer on my work, and want to make a break from that work when at home. Now I wait for official patches to fix the things and stop playing the game if patch breaks something that worked before.



Anyway, IMO, if something did not work at release that's fine. Take your time, fix when it gets in schedule for next patch. I'll be patient.

But if you break something in patch that worked before, it is hotfix material, and it should never be scheduled for future patch several moths later.

This is a practice I really dislike in Firaxis.

 

[JokerJace]

The idea that people who enjoy a game are harming the development of that game is absolutely absurd. There are game forums I frequent where fans are largely happy and positive with their game and provide constructive criticism and the yet, the designers continue to work happily on their game.

People who are enjoying the game do not 'ignore the issues blissfully'. There's not a single game on my hard drive or on Steam that does not have any bugs in it or could not do with further improvement in some way. Yet I am able to play most of these games and have a really good time doing so in spite of them.

I know of at least one game designer who has admitted that he likes to read a positive, glowing post from time to time and to have his ego 'stroked' as it helps to motivate him to continue to work on his game. Since no PC game is without problems, they are all working hard to fix bugs, solve tech issues, etc as long as there is the funding for them to do so and a bit of praise from time to time is like a little ray of sunshine in what might otherwise be a gloomy sea of nagativity.

The ego stroking absolutely does not encourage him to stop working and it should not bother anyone that some folks feel like offering a bit of positive feedback to the developers from time to time. If you can't offer any of it yourself, or contribute anything positive, you should not be concerned that people who do will somehow prevent or discourage the developers from fixing their game. Who knows, it might even spur him on to achieve more because he is feeling good.

Do you think that CiV would have become the great game it is now, if it had been praised beyond reason when it was first released? I think we owe the existence of this wonderful product to the harsh criticism of the 'more experienced' players. At least rather than any facile praise. But we have no way of proving either assumption, so let's agree to disagree. I only know that BE is very shallow and dull to me PERSONALLY. That's why I think the game needs a total makeover. This again makes it hard to articulate positive criticism. There is hardly anything I like about the game, because the negative aspects taint everything. And I'm not a high school teacher that feels the need to write 'I appreciate the effort, though.' under a bad homework to keep the student encouraged. When spending money, I have certain expectations. And sometimes it's best not to whitewash the truth. 'You have performed very badly, you need to train a lot harder' can be the best advice in some cases. And saying 'nobody is perfect' or 'no game is perfect on release' is a very aggressive relativization. You can apply that phrase to ANYTHING. Yet, the distance to perfection can vary enormously, wouldn't you agree?

And of course I realize that while there is a lot of negative feedback, not everybody hates the game. But I'm simply being so audacious as to think this is only because of some combination of voluntary ignorance, benevolence, general love for science fiction without actually looking for a good STRATEGY game, lack of experience, buyer's remorse and mindless blissfulness. Yes, you can call me a **** for disregarding the opinion of people who enjoy this game, but I'm actually convinced that people praising the game for the wrong reasons really hurt it's potential improvement.

Moderator Action: Please do not troll the forums.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Gorbles]

And others think that harshly criticising it for the wrong reasons also hurt potential improvement. I've seen games damaged by a focus group that are too focused on what they personally consider problems before (with developers that were browbeaten by said players repeatedly on the subject of balance).

The point about debate is that it involves give and take. Not an outright rejection of any ideas that don't run parallel with your own!

 

[Ryika]

And of course I realize that while there is a lot of negative feedback, not everybody hates the game. But I'm simply being so audacious as to think this is only because of some combination of voluntary ignorance, benevolence, general love for science fiction without actually looking for a good STRATEGY game, lack of experience, buyer's remorse and mindless blissfulness. Yes, you can call me a **** for disregarding the opinion of people who enjoy this game, but I'm actually convinced that people praising the game for the wrong reasons really hurt it's potential improvement.

I can't speak for everyone, but at least in my case it's none of these. I prefer BE mainly for a simple reason: It's shorter than other Civ-Games, and thus it feels a lot less "delayed". But while I like the game in general I still see the problems it has for me (some of them are caused by the shorter games, others are not) and I have spoken about them on many occasions.

So overall it's interesting how you describe the whole situation as this thing where you have to take an extreme position of either being totally against everything that is going on or totally over-praising the game -that's just such a simplistic and restrictive way of looking at it. Most people I read in these forums are just like me, somewhere in between those two points, forming quite a broad scale of different opinions. So no, your fear that if you stop complaining whenever you can this somehow leads to the situation where the game doesn't continue to develop is just wrong. And declaring that the opinions of people who you disagree with are invalid because... well, "because you know better" seems nonconstructive to me.

 

[JokerJace]

And others think that harshly criticising it for the wrong reasons also hurt potential improvement. I've seen games damaged by a focus group that are too focused on what they personally consider problems before (with developers that were browbeaten by said players repeatedly on the subject of balance).

The point about debate is that it involves give and take. Not an outright rejection of any ideas that don't run parallel with your own!

I list a fraction of the critical aspects the game lacks and you tell me the ones that correspond with wrong reasons, deal?

- a minimum amount of balance
- a challange
- actual strategical choices
- actual diplomacy
- cleverly interwoven core systems
- diverse factions
- awe-inspiring wonders
- replayability (a game that is deep enough to offer a different experience each time it is played)

I can't speak for everyone, but at least in my case it's none of these. I prefer BE mainly for a simple reason: It's shorter than other Civ-Games, and thus it feels a lot less "delayed". But while I like the game in general I still see the problems it has for me (some of them are caused by the shorter games, others are not) and I have spoken about them on many occasions.

It's not like they are different games beyond the average length of a game, right? Kinda hard for me to see how that's the crucial point, considering ALL differences.

So overall it's interesting how you describe the whole situation as this thing where you have to take an extreme position of either being totally against everything that is going on or totally over-praising the game -that's just such a simplistic and restrictive way of looking at it. Most people I read in these forums are just like me, somewhere in between those two points, forming quite a broad scale of different opinions. So no, your fear that if you complaining whenever you can this somehow leads to the situation where the game doesn't continue to develop is just wrong. And declaring that the opinions of people who you disagree with are invalid because... well, "because you know better" seems nonconstructive to me.

Nah, I do realize the game does not polarize that much. It's just that I have an extreme position. Saying the game is kinda okay or 'I like playing it' because of xyz is strongly over-praising it from my POV. ;-) Also I don't overestimate my influence on how the game continues to evolve. Also I did not say that I know better. Obviously it comes down to taste. But it's perfectly acceptable to argue about taste, no?

@Ryika I'm not so sure why we're even arguing, considering that you probably modded the game beyond comprehension.