So here's what I figure should be done about Cristo Redentor

[Monkeyfinger]

Make the "no 5 turn wait period between civic switches" bit work only for spiritual dudes, and get rid of the "double production speed if spiritual" part. This way no one has a big advantage getting it (except for those that have an advantage for all wonders), and everyone gets something good but not gamebreaking from it.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I completely agree.
I think having the ability to change civics multiple times in the one turn is too exploitable (though with a lot of micro-management).

 

[Nay]

I dont see it as game breaking, merely as "damn good".

But then, its a world wonder, no?
All of them 8well, almost all) confer abilities that could be seen as hugely overpwoered or game breaking.

 

[Fanaza]

I agree, Cristo Redentor needs to be toned down a bit. But another question, why is Cristo Redentor even in the game? There are better monuments than it, and what Cristo Redentor does in the game has little to do with the real monument.

I think the Bayreuth Festspielhaus should have taken its place. That has had a much larger cultural impact than Cristo Redentor. (That's the Wagner Opera house btw.)

 

[gettingfat]

CR may not be game-breaking, but at least highly exploitable. And as I said in another thread, the ability to switch civics unlimitedly within the same turn also doesn't make any sense as well. So I can switch to police state and slavery and whip some cheap military units, then within the same turn go back to representation and emancipation as if nothing has happened? Or I can switch to organized religion and universal suffrage, rush some buildings at discount, then go free religion immediately to get happy again? I just find it weird.

My suggestion is: you can switch civic only one time within a turn. CR is only a statue of Christ, not Christ himself. Unlimited civic switch sounds like a miracle, not wonder to me.

 

[Virulent]

I dont see it as game breaking, merely as "damn good".

But then, its a world wonder, no?
All of them 8well, almost all) confer abilities that could be seen as hugely overpwoered or game breaking.

Actually the power of Wonders has been toned down quite a bit in Civ IV compared to previous incarnations of Civ. Most of them are merely useful as opposed to game breaking and many of them are situational and are only useful for certain play styles.

As for CR I think it is tad overpowered but not gamebreaking due to how late it comes.

 

[Lurking Liu]

Yeah... It's a bit overpowered. I used it yesterday--In a war with Jaoa and Shaka (Funny thing, unrestricted leaders were on and Jaoa was Zulu, while Shaka was Portugeuse) that came out of nowhere, saw a bunch of Transports coming towards Amsterdam with only a few defenders, so I switched to Nationalism/Theocracy and drafted up a bunch of Infantry from the surrounding areas, then switched back to Free Speech/Free Religion. The next turn a Furious Qin demanded I switch to Bureucracy, so I did, then immediately back to Free Speech.

 

[Scaphism]

More than gamebreaking is seems exploitable and encourages you to spend a lot of time in the Civics changing screen.
The thought of doing it once or twice is "cool" but doing so repeatedly seems tiresome, and I don't think Firaxis wants to encourage that level of micromanagement so late in the game (where it is already a drag).

 

[SickCycle]

I think they made it like that so it wouldn't obsolete the spiritual trait, and even the spiritual leaders have a reason to grab it.

 

[Lurking Liu]

Except that does obsolete the trait. It's strictly better. The only thing that saves Spiritual is that Cristo Redentor is only available with Electricity. That's why I like the idea of making it so that Cristo duplicates Spiritual exactly, and is built at Double Speed for Spiritual Leaders as well as removing the wait between civic-changes for them.

 

[Quotey]

what Cristo Redentor does in the game has little to do with the real monument.

Jesus, did you just say that? Funnily enough, because the National Park does not make everyone suddenly healthy.

And why are you arguing about why BIG FANCY NAME WONDER should be in instead of the Cristo Rendetor? Jesus, take it to a Poland thread.

Anyway, the subject at hand: The Cristo Rendetor should really just shorten the wait between changing civics to 3 turns, and have all/all Civic & Religious anarchies be one turn.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

He said Poland...(ducks behind a Panzer...)

My games tend to be over by Electricity, unless I'm going for the Space Victory...in which case, I'm too busy just hitting enter to worry with micro-managing civics...

 

[Bushface]

I'd go for (a) no anarchy, and (b) only one revolution per turn. It's the unlimited switching that is overpowering. No opinion on the faster-for-Spiritual aspect.

 

[azaris]

A wonder isn't overpowered because you say it is. This forum has too many threads with people trying to "fix" things that aren't broken, and generally doing not a very good job at it (though of course there are some very good modders who have produced some very good unofficial fixes).

 

[Infantry#14]

how about 2 revolutions per turn? what if ai keep demanding you switich civic, then you can switch back.

 

[Lurking Liu]

What the... But it IS overpowered!

My God, man! It allows you to run any civic you want at any time for no opportunity cost. If someone says "Organized Religion is really cool, don't you think?" You don't have to tell them to F'off anymore--Just switch, then switch right back to Free Religion on your next turn. If you're attacked and need to bolster your army really fast, you switch to Nationalism and draft a bunch of units, then switch right back ON THE SAME TURN. You effectively are allowed to tack Slavery and Nationalism onto whatever Legal and Labor civics you already use--for no actual cost. Emancipation's upkeep is cheaper than Slavery, it causes unhappiness for non-emancipated civs, and doesn't have the slave revolt bad event. But you still get the benefit.

How is that not busted?

All we're saying is that it should effectively duplicate Spiritual, not completely surpass it.

 

[bonafide11]

By the time you get Cristo Redentor, it is so late that it is not overpowered in my opinion. It is damn good, but so what? Also a lot of times the UN has banned some civics by this time so there aren't even as many options as you'd like...

 

[Unthinking Pain]

It's Radio, not Electricity, for the CR. I think it is a bit overpowered, but I'm not sure how to change it without making it either pointless for Spiritual or pointless entirely.

 

[colony]

Needing Radio makes it late enough in the game that it's not game breaking. Yes it's powerful, but unless it's a very close game it's unlikely to give you that extra boost you need to win, unlike, for example, the Space Elevator would.

 

[Sepstrup]

I dislike it mainly because it doesn't make any sense at all. Civilizations is not supposed to be realistic, sure, but changing your entire government several times within a turn without consequences is ridiculous, and I generally don't think wonders should surpass traits either.