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[R&F] So...How's R&F?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Wingednosering, Feb 12, 2018.

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Has R&F met your expectations?

  1. Even better than I expected

    74 vote(s)
    29.8%
  2. It's good, as expected

    123 vote(s)
    49.6%
  3. It's good, but I wasn't expecting much

    28 vote(s)
    11.3%
  4. It isn't very good, no surprise

    22 vote(s)
    8.9%
  5. It is terrible. I had such high hopes!

    1 vote(s)
    0.4%
  1. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    Is there a Hall of Fame now? Is the AI less annoying/smarter? Is there a replay at the end. I.e. have any of the basics been improved?
     
  2. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    No.

    It's no smarter in most respects, but the spaceport bug has been fixed which was one of its major flaws. What do you mean by annoying? It seems less prone to early rushes against the player - haven't seen one yet - but it does eat city states even faster than it was doing in the last patch. Diplomacy still makes no actual sense, but the new alliance system is a (clumsy) way to force the AI into consistent game-long relationships with players or other AIs so that 'factions' can now emerge.

    It's still on a 300+ turn clock to win the game on Deity, assuming no interference from the player, so if you're aggressive it's never going to compete for peaceful victories, but its city placement, district placement and preference, and its choices of which Wonders to build, and where, all seem to have been improved to some extent.

    I think so, but haven't used it to see whether it's a real replay (there was a point in Civ V where what was called a replay was no such thing).

    A lot of the basics have been improved, just not the essentially cosmetic ones you're mostly asking about:

    AI settlement behaviour - and constraints on player expansion - have been improved by the loyalty system.

    Alliances have improved the diplomacy system, and the clumsy research agreement and defensive pact options have gone - it's just the system itself is so bad it needs an overhaul rather than a feature that feels like a temporary patch fix.

    There's a production reimbursement for failed Wonders which - coupled with Wonders being easier to get at every difficulty I've tried (Immortal and Deity) - makes Wonders a relevant part of gameplay.

    The new systems intrinsically rebalance the districts - trade routes are still important enough that commercial districts or harbors remain priorities even with the tier 1 building requirement, but entertainment districts have a practical role. Era score favours better-optimising build orders and exploration over random walks to victory, so there's at least the sense now that it's worth discovering and pursuing optimal strategies.
     
  3. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Warlord

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    From my personal standpoint - as a casual, but regular player (I find that playing a game of Civ while working - I do most work from home - allows me to be productive while relaxed) - I think R&F saved the game for me. Vanilla Civ 6 was almost as unplayable as Beyond Earth had been. The DLCs and patches fixed the worst issues and in the end it was fine - but definitely didn't feel fully fleshed out. Aside from the much-needed injection of new civs, wonders, policy cards, units, improvements, natural wonders, etc. the admittedly few major new systems are great improvements.

    Loyalty is perhaps the best new addition to the game insofar as I'm concerned. It allows for more aggressive peaceful games and forces you to be more strategic in city placement while thankfully reigning in the problem of overzealous forward-settling AIs. I've found loyalty to be a pretty big issues in most games I've played so far (and it seems to be a bigger issue on larger maps with more civs).

    The new alliances (and war types) add a lot of diplomatic flavor and extra utility to trade routes which could lay groundwork for a full economic victory in the next/final/possible expansion. It also makes the AI behave more rationally in terms of when they are willing to declare war and how much of your bs they'll put up with.

    Governors are a surprisingly nice addition. I'm not sure their current implementation is best - and the current governors could benefit from some tweaks at least - but it does add another layer of strategy and complexity to a Civ that was surprisingly lacking in those areas...

    And the eras... I like them. They need a bit of work: the real 'reward' and 'penalty' from golden and dark ages, respectively, is primarily the affect on loyalty. Use a golden age - or two in a row - and expand substantially the hit a dark age and the real power of the eras is obvious. Meanwhile, the dedications for golden ages are nice but underwhelming. Monumentality is pretty much my go to - the rest seem situational at best (there's a problem when the ability to buy settlers/traders/builders with faith is more attractive than the obvious 'culture' dedication when going for a cultural victory in most cases, for example...). Dedications for normal ages seems to be the best balanced. Still love the ideas.

    Emergencies? Eh... they need work. I find they don't pop up very much, if at all, if I'm playing with only 5 or 6 civs on standard maps... they are much more frequent on large, pangaea games wit 8 - 9 civs but at the same time they are more difficult to participate in on those maps (and they really become a non-choice because you virtually always benefit from getting involved - too little risk).

    So, overall R&F added plenty of new basic content (civs, wonders, etc.) and enough complex, well-thought out and strategic systems to make the game significantly more enjoyable. This comes despite some real continued flaws...

    I'd like to see another expansion revamp the tech and culture trees - I feel like the eras should be synced a bit better (e.g. if you are getting way ahead in terms of era on culture relative to tech, culture costs will go up and tech costs down). I'd like to see a few more technologies added to flesh out the game - and, quite frankly, I'd like to see the Enlightenment as a whole new Era after Renaissance. There is too quick a jump from archery to infantry and other techs come in odd orders. There are some good mods that try to do this, but I'd like an expansion to fix it. The earlier game needs extended and the later game enriched as well, generally.
     
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  4. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    I didn't mean to buy RnF early, but found myself in a situation where wanted to play Civ6 and staying vanilla felt like playing a less complete game than what was probably available, sooooo here are my initial thoughts on RnF:

    - The Loyalty system is... interesting. I'm a peaceful player, so I like the possibility to flip cities peacefully. I also like the need to plan expansion a bit more carefully. On the flip side, however, I also like settling far-away colonies and loyalty can mess that up. It doesn't make great sense to me that there's unclaimed land that's all but reserved for the player closes to it, because they exert up to 20 loyalty to those lands. I think in a Civ game there should be the danger that "if I don't settle those lands fast enough, someone else will". With this loyalty system it's more like "good luck settling there, I'll just flip your cities through loyalty." I'd like there to be a few more tools to protect your new cities from flipping.

    - Governors, not really a fan of them. Too much micro-management needed to get the best out of them. I'd like Governors be strictly Loyalty bonuses and nothing else.

    - Alliances, haven't tried them enough yet.

    - Emergencies seem just a bit wacky. I get what they're meant to do, but I'm not sure they were needed, not in this form anyway.

    I think RnF seems all right, but depends 90% on the Loyalty system - and how I feel about it in the long run - to work. It does make you pay more attention to how you go about building your empire and that feels initially at least like a positive thing.
     
  5. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    Oh, forgot to comment on the eras. A dark age seems a bit too punishing loyalty wise, imo. That's about it.
     
  6. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

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    I'm still playing my first R&F game but emergencies have played a huge role in my game, and in fact was the cause of my swinging towards victory, though I'm not sure if it worked as intended. I was in 3rd place and best buddies with Tamar and Seondoek, both of whom were ahead of me, then Tamar backstabbed Seondoek triggering an emergency, which gave me an excuse to take 1/3 of Tamar's cities with zero warmongering penalties, kicking me into 1st place. The emergency saved my butt without causing me any warmonger penalties (again, not sure if that was the intent).
     
  7. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Haven't seen a single backstab in any game I've played. Emergencies have spawned far more in my current, small map (4 times) than in any previous game (twice over Antananarivo - first when I took it, then when Korea did), but the three I've known about have all been city-state emergencies that don't noticeably punish the player for failing them.
     
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  8. isau

    isau Deity

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    If you want a ton of fun with the Loyalty system, load up a game as Lautoro. I was unsure exactly how useful his civ's special would be and it turns out to be pretty good, at least against AI at Emperor level. -20 Loyalty per kill can really mess up city owners. The only thing you have to watch for you is that you don't flip a city over to the Barbarians and then they send a bigger army after you.

    The only possible disappointment with Loyalty is there isn't a peaceful-ish civ who particularly specializes in city flipping. E.g. by lowering Loyalty each time they hit you with a culture bomb.
     
  9. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    I've stopped playing. Dunno if that will last. Just feel the series is going in a direction I don't care for.
     
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  10. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    I can certainly see that. It definitely seems they're pushing features that help with roleplaying over those that add needed strategic depth to the game - but the R&F features are a much better success for the roleplaying side than I was expecting.
     
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  11. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    I think I've played enough to give a decent review of my experiences, but I'll be playing a lot more to make sure ;)

    Overall I'm very happy with the expansion. One common critique I've seen of it is that it didn't change a lot about the base game. But I think it added and changed enough about vanilla that it's a much better game. It's kind of like vanilla was taken out of a cup and placed into a nice cone, with sprinkles on top :D

    Eras and loyalty: I think the new eras system is the best addition to the game. The golden age bonuses are fun! Falling into a dark age is dangerous! Those two elements add a lot of excitement. I also think they make players care less about eurekas and inspirations, which to me is great. Having a city flip over to you is great, and one flipping away adds tension. You might have to go to war to capture free cities, and that makes you much more engaged.

    Governors: The governors are purposefully designed to make you have to choose between keeping them put and moving them around. I think this is part of what Ed mentioned in his talk that @Eagle Pursuit shared. He doesn't like having automatic decisions in a game. Governors are a great example of that. Using Liang to build great coastal cities is fun, as is using Amani to become the suzerain of a city-state. They all have fun uses and abilities, even though you might have to get less-useful or interesting abilities upgraded first to get to them.

    Emergencies: I actually really like emergencies, especially the city-state ones. It feels good to be forced to break ties with a major civ for the sake of liberating a city state (and of course a little gold ;)). When an AI captures a city-state I was suzerain of, I feel like I have to respond to that emergency. They add a good level of spice to the game. I also had a backstabbing emergency in my last Scotland game, and it also added an element of fun. It's a new way to use your army without being a warmonger :D

    Alliances: The automatic defensive pacts is great. Sadly I haven't really looked into the new alliance types too much so far, I'm guessing they'll tweak the system at some point to make it stand out more. Either way they're a welcome addition/change to diplomacy.

    Government Plaza: I like the plaza, but I feel like it'll take some time for me to truly appreciate it. Right now I use it mostly to get extra promotions, as well as the audience chamber benefits. There's a lot of room for planning strategies centered around the plaza buildings though.

    The new features, in particular the golden age bonuses, give us plenty of room to plan out games and figure out fun ways to play. You can go with a faith-based empire that's going for a science victory, maybe by using monumentality to buy settlers and builders while you focus on building campuses. Or focus on rushing Pingala's +100% great person points to jump ahead. Looking for combinations in the systems will keep things interesting, especially now that we also have to deal with a better AI and the threat of cities flipping over.

    On the topic of AI, special mention has to go to it being much better now. It can be a real threat now, particularly early in the game. A player dedicated to defeating them can still do that relatively easily, but if you're fighting on multiple fronts you might be forced to make peace deals now rather than try to protect everything. I've been put in that situation far more often now due to the new world wars.

    For critique, the points in the eras system should be more clear regarding how overflow, or not meeting the target, will affect the next era. Loyalty being integrated with religion or culture might be good. I'm sure I'll have more critiques once I get used to the systems.

    I think the culture and religious victory types need to be re-examined, and I'm disappointed that the AI stills sometimes makes mistakes it should avoid. But those are my issues with the base game. Rise and Fall is a great enhancement of the game, and I think it shows that Firaxis is dedicated to continually improving it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  12. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    OK, thanks. Too bad that there isn't a hall of fame. I might seem as a small thing, but I really miss it. It helps you remembering your past games and it measures how you've done compared to previous games.

    By annoying I mean that they keep offering stupid deals, and they denounce me and are angry with me for no reason, and they declare war for no reason. Sometimes declaring war when they're nowhere near me and then offering peace where I pretty much without seeing an enemy unit can take their cities in the peace agreement. Annoying AND stupid.
     
  13. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Had a great session yesterday as the Zulu. I'm really enjoying this expansion. Still weird some big name civs aren't in, but I feel they did a great job with civs like the Cree and Zulu. Perhaps a poster above is correct in saying the game focuses more on roleplay than strategy. It may be why I like this game so much. I can't even think about going back to civ 5 or even civ 4 at this point. I'm happy with more content this expansion provides.

    Still needs some ai improvements. They need to build more units, at least the more peaceful civs do. Some civs do build a lot of units. The emergency system is probably the only new feature I feel needs more work.
     
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  14. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    City trading in peace deals has become MUCH harder in the expansion. First game, for example, I took 3 French cities, had an extremely superior military force (I think she didn't have a single unit left, also I had swordmen while she had warriors and *maybe* archers), one of them being Paris. She wouldn't give up a city I wanted even if I gave Paris back in return. (So I just remained patient, went into a Golden Age while she went into a Dark Age, and flipped her three remaining cities.)

    As for declaring war when not even near, that is most likely a joint war, and yes, they really should change that, because right now the AI considers a joint war just part of a deal and doesn't consider it's implications.

    As for denouncing you and being angry with you, they don't do that for no reason. There are suspicions however, that conquering leaves you with an invisible permanent penalty with the AI, so maybe it's because of that that they're disliking you. I can say, however, that in my current game I have 5 alliances out of the 8 AI civs, and the three that I don't have an alliance with dislike me with both their agendas.
     
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  15. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    Yes, they do. My recent game I ran into Australia and within 5 or 10 turns he denounced me. All I had done was finding him with a scout. And this was in the early game and I had NOT been in a war with anyone.

    Also, they are annoying when they keep saying the same things over and over. A decimated Norway, without a coastal city, keeps nagging me about lack of a fleet and Alexander, one or two turns after I've ended a war lasting forever complains that "I don't fight for my people."

    I do enjoy the game changes in CIV VI, but I don't enjoy the AI.
     
  16. GIDS888

    GIDS888 King

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    Mahoosive improvement. Particularly like stealing cities from AI, like the flexibility of Governors, AI still daft tho' !
     
  17. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    I don't know what difficulty you're playing on, but primarily on the higher difficulties the "first impressions" modifier can be significantly negative, and particularly if you don't send delegations you'll get denounced at least one time after meeting them. If you meet at least one agenda or do other positive stuff it'll be over after that because first inpressions is done though.

    As for Norway, those agendas (all of them) compare you against the average, not against their personal achievement on the matter. And Alexander's agenda is meant to be like this: He likes you while you're fighting and he doesn't like you while you're not fighting. That being said, I had him as an ally in a recent game and I noticed he never complained about me not fighting, so I assume it works differently when you have an alliance.
     
  18. Ammar

    Ammar King

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    Here is what I like:

    Loyalty, Dark/Golden Ages, the concept of Governors and the emergency system.

    I do not like the implementations of many of these systems.

    The governors seem poorly balanced (Magnus is too OP with chopping). Thematically, I also do not think they fit the game. First, they often feel anachronistic. Even Civ 1 had the advisors change their look each age - I feel that is the least they could have done. They are neither customisable (in terms of name and looks) like religions nor purely historic as great people. Not only are they the only made up people with names in the entire game, but they also seem to be clones with every civ having a copy. Here, you could say the same about the earlier advisors, but they did not have names. A name is supposed to make you an individual. Regardless of the their effects on game play, they just do not feel like they belong in the game.

    Emergencies with that siren sounding off are also not optimal from my point of view - fits the modern age but not the classical/medieval period. But it seems less of an issue.

    Dark/Golden Ages are ok as they stand, but I had the hope that they had somehow figures out to make the game interesting for a longer period of time, which different civs being dominant throughout the ages.
     
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  19. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    I'm aware of why they keep saying those things but it's too repetetive and sometimes stupid. :)
     
  20. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    I don't know, I definitely felt a lot more dominant in my Heroic Ages than in the Dark Age I had in between, where I was lagging behind in science and had to significantly change my priorities to catch up with the advancing world around me.
     
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