So Islam is a religion of peace?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Mouthwash, May 24, 2012.

  1. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    This is very strange, because I have never heard of it.
    But if you use to say that "war does not justify anything", then you have to notice that Jews have been a complete majority in Palestine until the forced immmigrations during the conflicts between Ummya and Abbas.
    And you can keep deepening into history, and never get out of it.
    So you can see that claiming historical justification on territories is unnecessery, and there is no "right" owner of any piece of land.
    If from some kind of reason, history led us to a specific situation, let it be.
    Let's see how we can move on forward. Look at the future, not at the past.

    So what are you trying to say with it?...

    Not the size, but the shape.

    Sharon and Rabin weren't terrorists.
    They were never refered to as terrorists.
    Doing one action is not terrorism.
    And it was a military operation.
    Terrorism is a violent action which is done to scare the people.
    Sharon and Rabin have never been terrorists.
    Not every tragedy is terrorism.
    Things like that happen in conflicts.
    But it's not always terrorism.


    It doesn't matter.
    I can defenetly say that the terrorism ruined Oslo.
    After the 2nd intifada, every statement made before needs to be said again.
    It's not the same conflict as before 2000.
     
  2. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    Well, one man's freedom fighter/patriot is another's terrorist.
     
  3. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    Israel ought to issue it's citizens with a 'how to argue' card because the arguments being used here are... depressingly inadequate and kind of disgusting.

    I'm actually losing some of my considerable sympathy for Israel because of this thread.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I agree. Several of my friends are rather ... passionate Israel critics and I always end up defending it. But if what I see here is representative of the level of debate in Israel then it's no wonder it's such a mess.
     
  5. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

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    I'm with you on this!
     
  6. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    While Sharon may not be a terrorist in the definition you are using, an Israeli government comission did find him bearing personal responsibility for allowing the Phalangist militia into the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps. Plus there were some rather disturbing links between Sharon and the IDF with Phalangist torture prisons.
    You talk about the lack of trust between the Israeli people and Fatah due to there actions, but there is also considerable distrust due to the actions of the Israeli government and who leads the government. Just imagine the political firestorm that would erupt if the leader of Fatah was found to bear personal responsibility for allowing a brutal massacre as well as having several rather large skeletons in his closet.
     
  7. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    Not always.

    Have you ran out of arguements? :lol:
    I am far from being a right-wing.
    And even though, I moderated my posts here, and edited each one of them several times, to make it sound nice to your ears.
    I can link you with a real right man if you want, and I'm sure it will be much more difficult for you to debate then..

    If you wish to live in your serenity and think that the world is a fairy tale, it's your problem. You probably can't face the truth.
    BTW, just a few hours ago terrorists attacked an Israeli bus in Bulgaria. At least seven were killed, and at least 20 injured. Just saying..


    And now for the one who can actually debate:
    Your right.
    This problem can certainly be true for both sides.
    But it doesn't change anything.
    Still, many people in Israel can't trust an organization which isn't a formal country, mainly because of the disappointments in the past.
    And again - Sharon's actions weren't in order to scare the poppulation, and again you combine between 1982 and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
    They are totaly different.
     
  8. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    And why aren't they a formal country? Because Israel constantly votes against it and the US uses its permanent Security Council veto each time.

    That's no argument at all.
     
  9. WindFish

    WindFish Class Warrior

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    Yes because the British launched airstrikes into East Belfast :rolleyes:


    How are the Arabs not secular?
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Ran out of desire to continue at this level of debate.

    Claim victory if you want to.
     
  11. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    I haven't posted on this issue in this thread. But my observation - and this comes from someone who is pro-Israeli - is valid. Your arguments suck if nobody except Zionists and the American Christian Right are ever going to agree with you. People like you are literally killing Israel's chances of ever obtaining a durable peace.

    It's phyrric and bound not to last.
     
  12. J. pride

    J. pride King

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    Sorry to derail your post but may I ask you why are you pro-Israeli?




    Since this thread has already turned into an Israeli-Palestinian thing, a question to all who support Israel. Do you believe that the persecution and atrocities committed upon the Jewish people throughout the centuries (and the last straw being the Holocaust) justify the existence of Zionism and the creation of Israel? If not, then what to you justifies Zionism?

    Spoiler :
    Apologies if you perceive the question to be loaded, that is not my intention. I really do want to hear the other viewpoint.
     
  13. kramerfan86

    kramerfan86 Deity

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    What exactly is the point of slaughtering civilians in a refugee camp beyond causing terror? They certainly hold no strategic value.
     
  14. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    I wonder what leads people to do such horrible things as this, and why Netanyahu immediately blamed Iran without any apparent direct evidence.

    Could at least some of it possibly be due to blowback from assassinating various Iranian civilians? That isn't to say that tourists in Bulgaria should be the subject of a terrorist attack any more than those who worked in the WTC should be. But don't you think there would likely be far less such events if the Israeli government didn't support and engage in such terrorist activities itself?
     
  15. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    Simple answer: there's no means of winding back the effects of '48 and '67. As a result, I think, the best outcome is one which recognizes that Israel exists and has a right to exist but which doesn't deny the Palestinians a state at pre-1967 borders (admitting land swaps and compensation where that isn't practical) with a capital in East Jerusalem.

    Zionism is complex. In broad strokes I agree with its assessment of Jews as a persecuted group and the need to do something about that. I disagree with the conclusions that some Zionists came up with, namely the foundation of Israel as a Jewish state.

    Having said all that, I don't think I need to justify Zionism. Israel exists. And the question of Israel's existence now is rather different from the question of Zionism in 1900 or 1939 for instance.

    I also think the Holocaust for Jews who lived through it was something so powerful and formative in their outlook that it allowed them to justify what they did. I don't think I'm ever going to agree with it, but I can at least understand the impulses that drove them to do it.

    Iranian civilians involved in their nuclear project are no different to American civilians involved in the CIA or Nazi scientists involved in making V2 rockets.
     
  16. The_Tyrant

    The_Tyrant Values Guardian

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    Typically I believe in the notion "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". But this whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict really has me at a stump. I say let them kill eachother.
     
  17. Ailedhoo

    Ailedhoo wonderer

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    Because the best solution is the spilling of blood as oppose to trying to organise peace talks.:rolleyes:

    And who is your enemy exactly?
     
  18. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Uppity Negroes, if his avatar is any indication.
     
  19. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    I see haven't read my former posts..

    If you compare to societies in Europe or in Israel, they are less secular.

    You are wrong.
    You fail to understand that if you have debated with 65% of the Israeli people, they would probably say things like: "who are those violent Palestinians? This is the land of our ancesors and you are just antisemistic!!"
    You think that I represent my country badly, but you have probably got to know only left wing Israelis. So, same as you said, your arguements suck if the only people who accept them are far left.
    They don't represent Israel. They represent what you want Israel to be.
    You can look as the Knesset and look for their representatives. A few.
    Another thing - I'm not here to say things that you would all accept. What's the point in this?
    I want to show you another point of view, and want you to think about what I posted here.
    I hope that somewhen it will make you understand Israel better.


    Barriers and occupation are not terror.
    And it is probably Iran. Iran doesn't really care about how do we treat the Palestinians.
     
  20. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    Yeah, I do. And the conclusion isn't pleasant. I don't want to think that "65%" of Israeli's are narrow minded, blinkered, bigoted, nationalistic fools. That's an awful outcome for Israel and a horrible realization for me. :(
     

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