So Long Belgium?

What should happen with Belgium?

  • It should stay together

    Votes: 31 28.7%
  • It should separate and become two independent countries

    Votes: 18 16.7%
  • It should separate and join France and the Netherlands

    Votes: 35 32.4%
  • It should separate, one becomes independent and one unites with France/Netherlands

    Votes: 7 6.5%
  • Other/I don't know

    Votes: 17 15.7%

  • Total voters
    108
First off, I live in Flanders and I'm one of the few Flemish who's against the separation of Flanders and Wallonia. Our nation's motto is "Eendracht maakt Macht" (in dutch, "l'Union fait lla Force" in French, or "Strength through Unity" in English).

One of the main reasons Belgians are for a separation is because in the two parts of Belgium we speak a different language. Many people even claim that because we don't share the same laguage, our culture is not the same (no Belgian tv network, no Belgian newspaper). I think there are a lot of examples of nations to be found throughout the world though where different languages are spoken and where the people can get along (though the opposite is true as well).

Another reason Flemish people want to separate from Wallonnia is because Wallonia is economically not so strong as Flanders. With our many socialist services many people from the northern (Flemish) part think they have to pay for the social security and welfare for the southern (Walloon) part of Belgium. what people tend to forget though is that Wallonia had a blooming economy up until +-20 yrs and Flemish people would go from the most northern part of Belgium to the most southern part to find a job. When the steel and coal industry tumbled into pieces, many people lost their jobs in Wallonia and had/have to find one in Flanders.

In the article it said that politicians are struggling for over three months to create a government. This is because in Flanders the Christian Democrats (who are in a coalition with a Flemish nationalistic party) have won and in Wallonia the Liberal Democrats have won (for the first time in +-25 yrs it wasn't a Walloon socialist victory). The are now quarreling because the Flemish politicians want more Flemish autonomy, while this is not the most favorite topic for the Walloon people. Most of the arguementsabout separation are about Brussels which is in a Flemish (Dutch speaking) province (= +- state), but practically 80% of Brussels' inhabitans speak French.

If you read the entire post I hope I didn't bore you :) It will be easier for you to give an opinion about this difficult matter (although it's even too difficult for politicians and people who've lived here all of their lives). Below you see a map of Belgium (Flanders is yellowish, Wallonia is red, and Brussels capital is blue.)

250px-Gewestenkaart.png


^I don't want to hear any jokes about this...
nice post and a good explanatian, though you forget to mention with whats happening in B-H-V is unconstitional,so the wallons won't give in to our constitution.
btw, i am for an independent flanders in europe (province in country europe) but an independancy of Flanders is now too costly.
but there must be a line drawn in the wallon part: NO MORE CORRUPTION!
else there never will be a change.
 
Errr...really? I must have missed that day in history class...

Working on a link, but work is getting busy all of a sudden. :mad:

Anyway, yeah, there were secret talks in WWII. Something about becoming a state so that US military access would be simpler, since we could form a permant base on the isles... IIRC.
 
Working on a link, but work is getting busy all of a sudden. :mad:

Anyway, yeah, there were secret talks in WWII. Something about becoming a state so that US military access would be simpler, since we could form a permant base on the isles... IIRC.

Hmmm...they must have been quite secret...but I'll wait to see the evidence...

Regardless, I don't think anyone could really envision the UK and the US joining together to form a single state (Oceania anyone?), at least in the forseeable future.
 
It was recently declassified documents (within last 5 yrs), I believe from the British side of it. It was only due to the (at the time) losing effort in WWII. Only that extreme seemed to make it a viable option, but obviously not one enough to have been made public.
 
nice post and a good explanatian, though you forget to mention with whats happening in B-H-V is unconstitional,so the wallons won't give in to our constitution.
btw, i am for an independent flanders in europe (province in country europe) but an independancy of Flanders is now too costly.
but there must be a line drawn in the wallon part: NO MORE CORRUPTION!
else there never will be a change.

Why is the current BHV situation unconstitional, I didn't know about that.
You're saying you're for an independent flanders in europe (province in country europe), do you realize the "rich" Flanders will have to carry the burdons of 25 (or in this case 26) European nations no matter what, which is basically why you want to separate I guess ("it's too costly for now").
Indeed, I am socialist, but the Walloon socialist party has crossed the line once too many times in terms of corruption. There could be a punishment though (being expelled from politics and losing your civil rights (voting rights etc.. )) if you're a corrupt politician.
 
I stopped reading after about half way and it said there economies were extremely intertwined. Economics is the end of all arguements. If it were good for economy to seperate they would but it isn't.
 
Another interesting fact: ~60% of the flemings speak french, but only 19% of the walloons speak dutch.

I see 3 possible causes here:

1- The walloons show a lack of goodwill towards their flemish cousins
2- French still has more prestige in Belgium even though it is the language of a minority
3- The walloons are, on average, less educated than the flemings.

In any case, the norm would be for more people of the minority to learn the majority language, and not the other way around. This is a recipe for resentment.
 
I could probably point out to the [wiki]Greater Netherlands[/wiki] movement, though it has fascist overtones...

According to that article, 2007 polls indicate that 2/3 of the dutch population would welcome union with Flanders... that's interesting.
I don't think many Dutch want Flanders back. And I am certain it is not 2/3 of the Dutch population.
 
Flemish people are increasingly fascistic anyway. And the fact that they still find people abroad to support them is totally beyond me. I mean come on, have you see what's happening in the Brussels-Hal-Vilvorde corridor? They ban residents from speaking French! And the point of this is that in making flee these people, they would make it a pure Flemish blood area and hence would supposedly give them a legitimacy to take over Brussels.

We're talking about the heart of Europe here. This is very serious.


Flemish people are getting increasingly fascistic, hmm, true the extreme-right party "vlaams belang" is getting more and more votes. (well it's all relative, I think the US republicans would be very, very right wing in comparison to Belgium) But you also have to understand why! When the party was formed in the 70s, mostly from dubious WO II collaborators, ALL other parties agreed to NEVER form any goverment including them. As a result, absolutely everything that goes wrong in our country, gives votes to these extremists. Alot of flemish people want independence but are not racist, but they are more or less forced to vote for the total package.

EDIT: well, actually there are other parties but some people here are also upset with muslim immigrants, and Vlaams Belang is getting alot of votes for that reason too.

Like you are saying, the thing that's stalling the goverment now, is the region "Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde" (Dutch, please! It's in Flanders :P) But what you're saying is just not true, nobody is banning people from speaking French on the streets... they can even get their official documents in French if they want. The problem is very complicated and has to do with voting, people could vote for Walloon parties in that part of Flanders. But recently, a politicaly neutral judge has said that it has to stop, french speaking politicians don't want that and are blocking the goverment creation, unless they get like a part of Flanders. And the worst part is, they can't hold new elections cause it would be unconstitutional because of what the judge said.
 
Another interesting fact: ~60% of the flemings speak french, but only 19% of the walloons speak dutch.

I see 3 possible causes here:

1- The walloons show a lack of goodwill towards their flemish cousins
2- French still has more prestige in Belgium even though it is the language of a minority
3- The walloons are, on average, less educated than the flemings.

In any case, the norm would be for more people of the minority to learn the majority language, and not the other way around. This is a recipe for resentment.
French is more widely spoken internationally than is Dutch. And if you check Canada, you'll notice that French speakers are more bilingual than English speakers. The reason is exactly the same, English is more widely spoken internationally than is French.

However, I've noticed that most of the Flemish people I've met talked to me in English instead of French. I've never asked if it was a matter of choice or of capacity though (I don't really care to be honnest).

Another thing to know is that Brussels-Capital is the only region in Belgium making bilinguism mandatory. Considering that bilinguism is more widespread in the Flanders than in Wallonia, this actually tends to benefit to Flemish workers in Brussels (they represent only about 10% of the city population). Just to give you an example, a friend of my sister had to become fluent in Dutch in order to become a lawyer in Brussels.
 
Considering the fact that France is infamous for oppressing local languages, I don't think you're one to whine about the flemish demanding to speak their language...
 
Considering the fact that France is infamous for oppressing local languages, I don't think you're one to whine about the flemish demanding to speak their language...
You just know nothing about France. When you don't know something, don't talk about it. That's the best way to not make ridiculous mistakes.
 
You just know nothing about France. When you don't know something, don't talk about it. That's the best way to not make ridiculous mistakes.

Give back Alsace, then we'll talk.
 
Give back Alsace, then we'll talk.

Grown up debate is going on obviously. Well, if taxes are unconstitutional as some user title say, note that France's constition's first article is :

La France est une république indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l'égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction d'origine, de race ou de religion. Elle respecte toutes les croyances.

Translates to :
France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis.

Here is your answer.
 
Eh, it can be thrown away like the four previous constitutions. So, my statement stands! My other demand is for you to have air conditioning.
 
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