So Long Belgium?

[Eran of Arcadia]

Not if the nation in question is France.

 

[GinandTonic]

Not if the nation in question is France.

Cool. So long as the naked double standard is flying high and clear.

 

[Bill3000]

Cool. So long as the naked double standard is flying high and clear.

It's not a double standard. It's France.

 

[luiz]

... back to Belgium...

Marla, the thing is in Canada the francophones are the minority, therefore it is natural that they are the most bilingual. It strikes me as odd that in a predominantly dutch-speaking nation the dutch-speakers will bother to learn french but the french-speakers will not bother to learn dutch. I'll even grant you that french is an easier language to learn, but it's not like dutch is impossible. 19% is an extremely low percentage for a bilingual nation.

It would be as if only 19% of the people of Québec spoke English, while 60% of the english canadians spoke french

Now obvioulsy this is no reason for independence, but it adds up to the general animosity for sure.

All in all, considering the fiscal nightmare that splitting a country always is, the best might be for increasing autonomy gradually untill the two regions rule themselves almost exclusively.

 

[MamboJoel]

All in all, considering the fiscal nightmare that splitting a country always is, the best might be for increasing autonomy gradually untill the two regions rule themselves almost exclusively.

Yeah, I kind of agree with that pragmatic conclusion. The language issue is a bit more complicated though, considering Belgium's history and the influence of the french language in the area. As a side note, German is also an official language.

As for Bill3000's point about throwing away Constitutions (and other simplistic things we read here and there): is promoting peremptory remarks such as these the best way to prove average non-americans wrong when they think average americans aren't very educated ?

 

[Bill3000]

As for Bill3000's point about throwing away Constitutions (and other simplistic things we read here and there): is promoting peremptory remarks such as these the best way to prove average non-americans wrong when they think average americans aren't very educated ?

No, but it's the best way to laugh at people who think that anything I said in the past couple of posts, or even my avatar scheme, was serious.

I really would have though the air conditioning remark would clue you on that...

Besides, I'm Jasonian, not American.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

@luiz. I believe the point of Marla's post was that the decision to become bilingual depended on the international use of the other national language.

 

[philippe]

Why is the current BHV situation unconstitional, I didn't know about that.
You're saying you're for an independent flanders in europe (province in country europe), do you realize the "rich" Flanders will have to carry the burdons of 25 (or in this case 26) European nations no matter what, which is basically why you want to separate I guess ("it's too costly for now").

I do realise, and yes i still want it, becuase it in the end Europe will pay itself back to the flemmish people. Transfer money to a mafia-run goverment isn't.
do you know that only Benin and one other country have a worse tax administration?

besides, reading some of the arguments here, makes me see that the reasonability of the Walloon arguments are making no sense at all...

 

[Berrie]

Actually, I'm really getting sick of these Flemish guys who are the majority and control the economy and despite this, who still consider themselves as the victims of an evil Walloon minority. Flemish independentists are downright racist when they talk about the walloons. The world really has to know that.

You offend me, Marla. I had a higher opinion of you, but I guess I will have to change that opinion...

 

[Berrie]

Why is the current BHV situation unconstitional, I didn't know about that.

It's difficult to explain, but when the language border was set in the '60's, it was decided that electoral region Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde would receive different rules.

But when they decided to reform the province of Brabant in a Flemish and Wallon part and coupled the electoral regions to the provinces, it created an unequal treatment between Flemish and francophone voters. Francophones who lived in Brussels and the region Halle-Vilvoorde (in Flandres), got the chance to vote for francophone parties while those francophone parties didin't had to compete in other electoral regions to win the vote. This was because Halle-Vilvoorde is a part of Flandres, but it's the only electoral region where you can vote for francophone parties.
It also created the situation where the people from Brussels (who are predominantly francophone) actually vote in Flandres.

These two situations have as a result that francophone parties get more seats then they should get.

 

[Marla_Singer]

You offend me, Marla. I had a higher opinion of you, but I guess I will have to change that opinion...

Please don't tell me the Vlaams Belang party isn't disgustingly racist. According to them, all the Flemish problems come from the Walloons and the immigrants. Well, if I offended you in saying so, then I guess that I will also have to change my opinion on you.

Anyway, if the Flanders want independence, then so be it. But don't expect Brussels to be a part of it.

 

[philippe]

Please don't tell me the Vlaams Belang party isn't disgustingly racist. According to them, all the Flemish problems come from the Walloons and the immigrants. Well, if I offended you in saying so, then I guess that I will also have to change my opinion on you.

Anyway, if the Flanders want independence, then so be it. But don't expect Brussels to be a part of it.

YOU ARE THE DISCRIMINATOR! YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY!
For years the Flemmish were OPPRESSED and DISCRIMINATED by the french.
IT'S YOUR COUNTRY TO BLAME THAT WE NEVER HAD ANY REAL INDEPENDENCE! YOU GUYS WERE ALWAYS AFRAID OF OUR ECONOMIC POWER!!
Your country should be apologising itself over and over again!
ITS YOUR NAPOLEON who "FRENCHED" Brussels!
Its YOUR COUNTRY WHO ANNEXED PARTS OF FLANDERS!!
And now we are wealthy (BY OUR OWN HARD WORK!) and a MAJORITY, you STILL treat us as "untermenschen"! It is not becuase i am Flemmish i am extreme right!
STOP THE GENERALISATION!
we stand for our rights and the french think we're extreme-right
But the french DO like our jobs. Or else would you explain the mass work immigration into our country by your people?

 

[Marla_Singer]

YOU ARE THE DISCRIMINATOR! YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY!
For years the Flemmish were OPPRESSED and DISCRIMINATED by the french.
IT'S YOUR COUNTRY TO BLAME THAT WE NEVER HAD ANY REAL INDEPENDENCE! YOU GUYS WERE ALWAYS AFRAID OF OUR ECONOMIC POWER!!
Your country should be apologising itself over and over again!
ITS YOUR NAPOLEON who "FRENCHED" Brussels!
Its YOUR COUNTRY WHO ANNEXED PARTS OF FLANDERS!!
And now we are wealthy (BY OUR OWN HARD WORK!) and a MAJORITY, you STILL treat us as "untermenschen"! It is not becuase i am Flemmish i am extreme right!
STOP THE GENERALISATION!
we stand for our rights and the french think we're extreme-right
But the french DO like our jobs. Or else would you explain the mass work immigration into our country by your people?

Yeah, the Flemish people are the poor victims of the lazy French oppressors. And also of the evil Arabs invading the country. And also of the dictatorial European Union.
Well, you've exactly got my point.

 

[philippe]

Yeah, the Flemish people are the poor victims of the lazy French oppressors. And also of the evil Arabs invading the country. And also of the dictatorial European Union.

Well, you've exactly got my point.

now you showed my point by generalising again.
I'm not against immigration and i'm certainly not against the EU .

Shows again how ignorant frenchmen can be.
you can't run from your country's wreched history!
It IS France who is at the cause of many problems. (and Spain of course let's not forget them )
Not even you can deny that.
can't you see it? throughout history we always have been a "buffer" now prolly half of northern france works here

 

[Berrie]

Please don't tell me the Vlaams Belang party isn't disgustingly racist. According to them, all the Flemish problems come from the Walloons and the immigrants. Well, if I offended you in saying so, then I guess that I will also have to change my opinion on you.

Anyway, if the Flanders want independence, then so be it. But don't expect Brussels to be a part of it.

Vlaams Belang is racist, but that isn't what you said. You said that Flemish people who are for independance are racists and that the world should know it.

Quite a difference, now isn't it?

 

[Berrie]

YOU ARE THE DISCRIMINATOR! YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY!
For years the Flemmish were OPPRESSED and DISCRIMINATED by the french.
IT'S YOUR COUNTRY TO BLAME THAT WE NEVER HAD ANY REAL INDEPENDENCE! YOU GUYS WERE ALWAYS AFRAID OF OUR ECONOMIC POWER!!
Your country should be apologising itself over and over again!
ITS YOUR NAPOLEON who "FRENCHED" Brussels!
Its YOUR COUNTRY WHO ANNEXED PARTS OF FLANDERS!!
And now we are wealthy (BY OUR OWN HARD WORK!) and a MAJORITY, you STILL treat us as "untermenschen"! It is not becuase i am Flemmish i am extreme right!
STOP THE GENERALISATION!
we stand for our rights and the french think we're extreme-right
But the french DO like our jobs. Or else would you explain the mass work immigration into our country by your people?

Wow there, brother. Don't get too excited. History is what it is. No need to blame every Frenchman, Austrian, German,... for it.

 

[aronnax]

Alright, correct me if I am wrong. I dont know much about the Belgium sitch so If i missed out or post something wrong tell me.

Okay the Dutch Speaking Flemish want independence while the French Speaking Walloons dont want it.

The Walloons are not as rich as the Flemish and the Walloon economy is lagging behind.

Why doesnt Walloons want independence?

Is it because of the economic situation?

 

[Berrie]

Alright, correct me if I am wrong. I dont know much about the Belgium sitch so If i missed out or post something wrong tell me.

Okay the Dutch Speaking Flemish want independence while the French Speaking Walloons dont want it.

The Walloons are not as rich as the Flemish and the Walloon economy is lagging behind.

Why doesnt Walloons want independence?

Is it because of the economic situation?

At the moment there is no majority on each side for independence (about 35-40% of the Flemish and about 10-12% of the Wallons want independence).

Flanders is at the moment richer then Wallonia. This results in money transfers from Flanders to Wallonia (a sensitive topic in Belgium).

Wallonia doesn't want independence because they benefit the most from the existence of the Belgium state. Flanders is in a much better position to handle an independence then Wallonia.

Of course it's more complex then that, but that's the basics...

 

[philippe]

ok i reacted a bit harsh, but who's to blame? Of course the French will support the wallons. But there has always been a resentment for "that foul ******** language" that is our language. believe it or not but 100 years ago almost everyone got their lessons in french, and you HAD TO speak French to get in any social higher position. In WW I the Flemmish often got slaughtered becuase the officers only gave their orders in French "who's arrogant then"?

There is still parts of Flanders being annexed by france...
and now french speaking citizens get an unfair advantage in crucial election area's.

 

[LAnkou]

I say give Flanders a spank and Homer a donut!!!

Hmmm, Donut!!!