So Macron Hates "Woke" Blames America

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Joij21, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. Joij21

    Joij21 Emperor

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  2. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I thought it’s just another Tuesday for the French to hate anything that’s not French. Case in point as an example, with their language regulation (by the Académie Française) making sure to keep anything English out of their language.

    :dunno:
     
  3. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    But not on le weekend. :p
     
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  4. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Macron is seriously worried.

    AS there is no chance in hell of the left in France putting up a single candidate I predict that Le Pen will win in a second round against Macron. Two years to go and everything Macron stands for is failing.

    This divisiveness imported from the US is not big in France, It basically infects the PMC and some of the young aspiring into entering the PMC. But it's big enough that Macron cannot claim both the "conservatives" and the "us style liberals" (the wokes) in France. And he needs every vote: without pulling that off Le Pen will beat him. He needs "national unity" to put himself forth as its representative against the "populist threat", and US style politics are anything but. In the US the PMC may have gone massively "woke" (doing the rituals...), in France most remains old-style conservative. Which means they'll split and each side refuse to support a candidate supported by "the other side". Which means Macron falls.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  5. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Its a cheap shot by the French to blame the US for its troubles.
    The embrace of Nationalism has been a result of the failures of Liberals policies, its happening all through the EU
    The US just the most visible and disastrous example of this with the reckless anti science, trade wars, and violence
     
  6. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    The article in the opening post has been written by someone who doesn't know much about France, and wrongly analyses the French society according to American values. That's natural, we all do that kind of mistakes, but it doesn't work this way. You just can't understand a country if you don't know its History, what it's been through and why is it the way it is nowadays, and France is no exception to this. Universalism is at the core of the French model of society, it's actually what defines the Republic in the very first sentence of the very first paragraph of the French constitution. The reason for this is because universalism is what allowed the country to become peaceful again after centuries of civil wars between protestants and catholics, it is what allowed emancipation of the Jews, abolition of slavery and universal suffrage. So in our case, according to our History, universalism makes sense, which doesn't mean that is necessarily true in other countries having a different History.

    The so-called "attack" from President Macron, I haven't read it anywhere else than on this thread and on another US forum, both mentionning the same NY Times article. What has been told by Macron, we haven't heard it in France. The French press doesn't mention it. It's not even debated, I haven't even found a French article about it, so I hardly believe that is something as important as the writer of the article makes it out to be. What is obvious though is that the recent months have shown a particularly divided US society, I guess everyone can agree on that, even American themselves. As a matter of fact, the new President Joe Biden considers that is one of the first issue he needs to address. So yes, in that context, I believe that France is not the only country in which people are debating about what went wrong in the US and how about avoiding falling in the same trap.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos The Eternal

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    "One week without without [some kind of coffee] will break the parisians"
    said by some mustachioed prussian in 1870
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  8. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Marine Le Pen has not a single chance to win the next Presidential elections. It is sociologically impossible. In 2017, she only had half the votes Macron had. In order to increase her score, she would need to convince both the right-wing conservatives and the populist far left, but both hate even more Le Pen than Macron. It just cannot work.

    Marine Le Pen is certainly not a threat to Macron. As a matter of fact, if the second round would be between both (which isn't sure, we don't even know candidates yet), that would be the easiest way for Macron to win the elections.
     
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  9. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I don't live in France but my acquaintances there, in central Paris (there is worry) and to the north (there is rage) , tell me it's changing. The next election will not be a repeat of the last one. Supposedly to the south it's even getting more to the breaking point.
    As will all predictions, time will tell.
     
  10. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    It was my understanding that the FN had a fairly substantial divide between the northern and southern supporters. Their supporters in the north drew heavily from the ex socialist industrial working class and were most concerned with employment and globalization; while their southern supporters are a lot of well-off casual racists (simplified obviously).
    If my understanding was not wrong, is that divide still an issue in FN politics?

    Also, where does Melenchon fit into this? Or is he relegated to being a professional curiosity?
     
  11. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I really don't know, I only get gossip from acquaintances there. No deep analysis of what's going on. But they believe things have been changing.

    Melenchon has no chance. He has made too many bad choices already, tarnished his image with large portions of the voters and it's not salvageable. But his ego is too great to back down I'm guessing. If the election was now the left would present itself divided and fail to get anyone into the second round. Now Macron would win the second. but in a couple years more?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  12. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Can you elaborate? Melenchon doesn't seem the type to engage in the third way/soft left that is so attractive to the Democratic and British Labour Party.

    (Cue the joke about Melenchon, Sanders, and Corbyn. Melenchon should go to America where he would confuse everyone, Sanders should go to the UK where he can't be slandered as an anti-Semite, and Corbyn should go to France where being seen as an anti-Semite is a positive.)
     
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  13. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    That rage does exist but is nothing new. Le Pen's popularity level hasn't changed since 2015: it remains at a high level but on a plateau at about 25%/30%. Macron, despite having suffered from the yellow vests crisis, then the covid crisis management controvery, and more recently the vaccination management controversy, remained no matter what at higher levels of popularity at about 35%/40%. However what matters the most in an election played in 2 rounds as in France are the negative opinions: Le Pen remains steadily at 70%, whereas Macron is at about 55%. Therefore, even if it's true there's a strong crisis of legitimacy for French politicians in general, Le Pen does not benefit from it.

    Jean-Marie Le Pen, the father, was clearly an old-school fascist. However Marine Le Pen, the daughter, is more of a right-wing populist. As a matter of fact, she's even less extremist than GOP has become in the US with Trump, or even the Tories in Britain with Johnson. She even renounced to get rid of the euro and leave the EU and call for changing the EU to better support European interests instead.

    Mélenchon has big issues. First thing is he very badly reacted to a judiciary investigation after having been accused to divert MEP's assistants from their EU's duty to serve the party instead. He declared then "I am the Republic! My person is sacred!", probably meaning that he was a French member of Parliament and his independence from the justice should be respected. Yet that's not how justice heard it and he's been condemned for outrage and rebellion.

    But more deeply, he has a bit lost his political line. As an old-school socialist, he always supported a productivist perception of society considering employment the top priority. However he recently changed this in an attempt to seduce environmentalists which ultimately failed. Therefore, he has lost support among the working class suffering of the lack of job opportunities, whereas pro-environmantalist voters still vote for the greens.

    As a matter of fact, there's no proeminent opposition figure at this stage in France who's really threatening Macron. Everyone is hated in general, massively. There's no one who is not rejected by a majority of voters currently in France. However, opposition leaders are even more rejected than Macron is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  14. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Christ, remember when people insisted this bloke was progressive.

    It is pretty funny that both the US and French right wings apparently blame the other for insidious post-colonial academic ideas undermining the national purity, though.
     
  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    What Marla said. He tries to get into the poisonous idpol/environmentalism/minority politics. To head off perceived threats of the yourger voters being seduced with that by other parties. Going as far as marching with bloody islamsists at one point! That won't be forgotten or forgiven, he's basically shown himself in their eyes no different from the others.

    Corbyn never did that. His one fault was being weak-willed. Failing to purge his opponents inside the party before they sabotaged him successful. And it wasn't for lack of warnings - they kept trying without having to fear consequ3ences, until they succeeded.

    Sanders, that one... there I dould make comparisons with Melenchon's mistakes. But Sanders is not the same either.

    That's funny to think about. Let's see... Melenchon would be crucified within one week in America :lol: Deplatformed or cancelled or whatever. Sanders would still be smeared as an anti-semite, whenever being jew stopped that? And Corbyn in France... he might actually do very good there! Someone like him. Provided that he had what he lacked in the UK: a ruthless assistant guiding him to not forgive not negotiate with enemies! But we wouldn't even be noticed in the US today: people would simply ignore him.

    Come on, a protegé of the Rothschilds and the media barons? Who did he fool? It was plain that he represented solely the interests if french high finance - that was his curricula and his constituency!

    And when has high finance been progressive in France after the original French Revolution?
     
  16. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Macron is indeed a progressist, but he's also a universalist. The article in the OP assumes that whoever would oppose to identity politics belongs necessarily to the alt-right. I don't know in other countries but that's not how it works in France. Many people among the French left, even among the radical left, considers that identity politics is divisive by nature, that opposing people according to who they are isn't the proper solution to fight discriminations, and that it causes more harm than good to national cohesion. As a matter of fact, events of recent months in the United States have shown such a fear isn't entirely baseless.
     
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  17. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    French Revolution was ideologically heavily liberal by nature. As a matter of fact, in abolishing priviledges, guilds and corporations, the French Revolution has actually been one of the most radical market liberalisation in History: everyone was suddenly free to work or invest in all activities whereas those were heavily restricted before in France (a lot more than in other European powers of the time).
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  18. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    And bless the french for their resistance to cultural colonization by silly ideas!

    But some are susceptible, among the younger generations. More inconsequential environmentalism that idpol there, fortunately. But still divisive, compounding problems of divisions among the french left that are old. I have no hope of seeing the left in France put up a candidate capable of winning the next presidential election. Will they support Macron against Le Pen? Today, yes. But we're only at the end of Year I of the coronavirus disaster. Already 8 more months that we should have been. Want to bet we'll see a year 2 still with it? Macron is fighting to keep things as they were (the social hierarchy in place, his sponsors on top). But this disaster, the way governments are handling it, is bankrupting the small, worsening labour conditions for the many and creating huge profits (and if not profits, cheap credit!) for the big. Exacerbating social inequalities. It won't matter of leaders on the left call for a vote on Macron to defeat Le Pen. Le Pen will win against Macron. She's smart enough, populist enough, to ride that wave of discontentment and indeed despair and without an opposition from the left she will be the popular candidate.

    And so that was the only occasion when the men of money were progressive, in getting rid of the aristocracy. Afterwards... with Napoleon - and the following regimes - they were on top and are not going to want to progress out of it!
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus Hey now!

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    That was when a Republican was in the White House. Now that Trump is out, Macron has to change his grandstanding from left to right. Same as Justin Trudeau.
     
  20. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    No to both. If it comes to a second round between Macron and Le Pen it probably won't be a 65/35 split like last time but an easy enough victory for Macron. 15 months is a long time to sort out candidates who come from large ideological groups (a left wing or right wing candidate could rise up in that time) but Le Pen is a known entity. She won't be able to rise above her ceiling when there are plenty of other options in the first round, and then the dynamics will be against her. Last time she didn't even come first in the first round, doing worse than expected by pollsters and pundits.
    Her party did worse in the 2019 EU election than in 2014.

    To come back to the thread's main point, yes Macron is moving to the right on these issues : he's also attacking islam pretty strongly, probably because he's more worried about a rival to his right than to his left next year. It could be a mistake if the left starts waking up (last poll had Macron and Le Pen around 25% in the first round, with the socialist and right wing candidates both at 16% and Melenchon at 10%)
     
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