So Macron Hates "Woke" Blames America

[Kyriakos]

Intent is, in my view, what is crucial. If someone compares some tragic event to a silly or incomparable event, but does so with no ill intent against people tied to the tragic event, then it is not logical to accuse him of being racist or against a people.

For example, if some kid is playing with legos, and compares the fall of Constantinople to having his favorite lego model fall and break to pieces, it isn't something which can reasonably lead to animosity by a greek person (or other proponents of the restoration of the Empire).
It won't be the same if it is a comparison meant to put down. In that case, I agree with you and will help organize the crusade.

 

[Farm Boy]

But then there is no point.

 

[aelf]

But many US Conservatives love Israel. Are their heads exploding over who to support? I'm really curious.

 

[Samson]

Do not these very rich people have PR consultants that they talk to all the time, whose job it is to tell them what will happen if they post anything about the holocaust on the internet? They must have talked to someone before posting things like this.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Intent is, in my view, what is crucial. If someone compares some tragic event to a silly or incomparable event, but does so with no ill intent against people tied to the tragic event, then it is not logical to accuse him of being racist or against a people.

For example, if some kid is playing with legos, and compares the fall of Constantinople to having his favorite lego model fall and break to pieces, it isn't something which can reasonably lead to animosity by a greek person (or other proponents of the restoration of the Empire).
It won't be the same if it is a comparison meant to put down. In that case, I agree with you and will help organize the crusade.

The kid isn't claiming to be making a serious political point and influence the beliefs of others. Their intent isn't the same.
As for Gina Carano I reckon ridicule and scorn are punishment enough.
What Disney did wasn't punishment for her views, it was public relations, they don't want to be associated with her.

There have been many other genocides but none on the scale of the Holocaust. Thats why it is treated differently.

 

[innonimatu]

It only bars from public spaces people who take thier dress religiously? Everyone else should be fine, true?

Not from public spaces, from certain spaces.

And, to bring this back to french specifics, the political theater there is getting weirder by the day.

Même Marine Le Pen avait du mal à y croire. Jeudi 11 février, lors du débat l’opposant, sur France 2, à Gérald Darmanin, ministre de l’intérieur, la présidente du Rassemblement national (RN, ex-Front national) s’est vue accusée de « mollesse » au sujet de l’islam. « Dans sa stratégie de dédiabolisation, Mme Le Pen en vient à être quasiment un peu dans la mollesse, il faut reprendre des vitamines. (…) Vous êtes prête à ne pas légiférer sur les cultes et vous dites que l’islam n’est même pas un problème. » Sautant opportunément sur cette occasion, Marine Le Pen a répondu, en appuyant sur la distinction entre islam et islamisme : « Je n’entends pas m’attaquer à l’islam, qui est une religion comme une autre et [pour laquelle], parce que je suis profondément attachée à nos valeurs françaises, je souhaite conserver sa liberté totale d’organisation et la liberté totale de culte. »

C’est du jamais-vu : habituellement la chef du parti d’extrême droite se voit accusée d’être trop radicale, trop intolérante, et de porter un discours contraire aux valeurs de la République. M. Darmanin, lui, a choisi, une stratégie inverse, essayant de se montrer plus ferme qu’elle sur la lutte contre l’islam et l’islamisme et en insinuant qu’elle serait au second tour de l’élection présidentielle de 2022, la plaçant de fait comme la principale opposante à l’exécutif.

Macon's interior ministrer complains that Le Pen is not though enough on Islam. Le Pen makes some point of distinguishing between islamisme and islam, and claims to be the one fighting for the value of religious freedom...
Europe is ruled by idiots.

 

[Farm Boy]

Not from public spaces, from certain spaces.

"Certain" is really inadequate there, albeit true. If that includes something like public schooling for children, then the right to exist religiously as such a is definitely not just in play but probably at least partially the goal. Probably the same for state IDs. Not the same for different things, likely.

 

[Gorbles]

I get that, but am not sympathetic since clearly the intention wasn't to belittle the jewish people. You wouldn't easily argue that any random metaphor is belittling the secondary object which has qualities carried over to the focused-upon object.

It doesn't stop being antisemitic because you've decided there isn't intent there.

Besides, intent isn't a necessary qualifier. Something can be ignorant and still racist.

Was Pedro Pascal's tweet with jews in a concentration camp being compared to kids behind bars in 2018 anti-semitic?

Would you stop arguing / playing this game of gotcha if I said yes? I doubt it.

Regardless, there's likely nuance, and I'm not most qualified to comment, but no, his isn't. There have been numerous comparisons between US border policy, ICE and attempted genocide by a number of people qualified to talk about it.

Maybe if conservatives are getting locked in cages without representation or trial, this comparison would make more sense. As it is, you're just trying a gotcha without actually making an argument.

 

[Samson]

"Certain" is really inadequate there, albeit true. If that includes something like public schooling for children, then the right to exist religiously as such a is definitely not just in play but probably at least partially the goal. Probably the same for state IDs. Not the same for different things, likely.

I do get that France has a different legal system, but the burka and burkini bans seem pretty tough to me.

 

[Kaitzilla]

It doesn't stop being antisemitic because you've decided there isn't intent there.

Besides, intent isn't a necessary qualifier. Something can be ignorant and still racist.


Would you stop arguing / playing this game of gotcha if I said yes? I doubt it.

Regardless, there's likely nuance, and I'm not most qualified to comment, but no, his isn't. There have been numerous comparisons between US border policy, ICE and attempted genocide by a number of people qualified to talk about it.

Maybe if conservatives are getting locked in cages without representation or trial, this comparison would make more sense. As it is, you're just trying a gotcha without actually making an argument.

Intent doesn't matter.

Pedro had a lot of nuance.

Thanks for clearing up your standards for me.

 

[Gorbles]

Intent doesn't matter.

Pedro had a lot of nuance.

Thanks for clearing up your standards for me.

Thanks for proving your lack of an argument, and indeed your own standards. Good job misquoting me as well

 

[Kaitzilla]

Thanks for proving your lack of an argument, and indeed your own standards. Good job misquoting me as well

I will try again then.

Your bar for being an anti-semitic seems low to me.

The fact that it was the Holocaust used makes it anti-semitic. If it was a different genocide, obviously, it would be offensive to that demographic.

And yet for Pedro's Holocaust tweet,

...Would you stop arguing / playing this game of gotcha if I said yes? I doubt it.

Regardless, there's likely nuance, and I'm not most qualified to comment, but no, his isn't. There have been numerous comparisons between US border policy, ICE and attempted genocide by a number of people qualified to talk about it...

it goes back to normal.

My argument is that Gina is being piled on here with the Anti-Semite label.

It does not seem warranted.

 

[Samson]

Your bar for being an anti-semitic seems low to me.

When I say anti-semitic I am talking about the speech, not the person. I do not think either of these people have anything against the jews. But when you downplay the holocaust by comparing it to being sacked by Disney your speech could be anti-semitic. Particularly considering what is said about Walt.

 

[Gorbles]

I will try again then.

Your bar for being an anti-semitic seems low to me.

And yet for Pedro's Holocaust tweet,

it goes back to normal.

My argument is that Gina is being piled on here with the Anti-Semite label.

It does not seem warranted.

If my bar for calling something antisemitic seems low, what relevance does Pedro's tweet have then? Like I asked before (and you ignored), if I had said yes, would you have stopped arguing? Evidently not.

Aside from that, you're quoting a reply to someone else with a different context, who was discussing the importance of other genocides (not to be understated).

To add some further context, Pedro's tweet is being dug up as a game of gotcha. Correct? So think about it logically. If Pedro's tweet was exactly the same, and Disney fire people for singular tweets that they make, the same reaction would've occurred (Disney has prior: see James Gunn). Except they didn't. So it can't be the same. Not to mention we have evidence that Carano has prior offenses (Google it).

But even if it did, it's not the same thing. Gina Carano is comparing the treatment of conservative (or further-right) people to Jews being killed in the Holocaust. Conservatives are not being put in concentration camps. The very comparison is offensive. You are comparing people killed, with people not killed. Offensive. The tweet is comparing a subjugated, gaslit and terrorised minority with (by all accounts) a pretty populous and varied political ideology. Offensive again. Pedro's isn't that in the slightest. Comparing people in cages in detention facilities frequently compared to concentration camps, to those selfsame concentration camps, is not the same situation.

So pulling up a tweet from two years ago has no constructive basis here. Moreso when you don't believe Carano's actions are that bad. So why try to make a fuss out of Pedro's? Do you see how tiring and pointless this entire attempt of yours was? Like I said - it's not an argument.

As a final point, I don't care if someone is getting ratioed because they're proudly and without caution advertising their opinions to the Internet. We're not dogpiling here on CFC. The word "dogpile", like most things borrowed from progressive or leftist causes, is being co-opted into nothingness. "being criticised for saying a bad thing" is not "being dogpiled". Three people being critical of her on a forum halfway across the Internet is not a dogpile.

 

[Kyriakos]

There have been many other genocides but none on the scale of the Holocaust. Thats why it is treated differently.

Not really; even soviet citizens alone killed in ww2 are more. And you wouldn't like it if sufferers of other genocides would find your own view there as racist, anti-certain people.
While the jewish genocide was massive and a hideous war crime by all means, it wasn't the first such and won't be the last, and you may like to know that Hitler wrote in his book how he'd model it after the genocidal actions of your new hero, the ottoman empire

 

[AmazonQueen]

Not really; even soviet citizens alone killed in ww2 are more. And you wouldn't like it if sufferers of other genocides would find your own view there as racist, anti-certain people.
While the jewish genocide was massive and a hideous war crime by all means, it wasn't the first such and won't be the last, and you may like to know that Hitler wrote in his book how he'd model it after the genocidal actions of your new hero, the ottoman empire

Yes really.
Soviet citizens were various ethnicities and religions including Jewish but Hitler didn't embark on a campaign to eliminate Soviet citizens in general
I'm not denying the Armenian genocide or any of the others that have occurred but none of them were anything like as large or comprehensive as the Holocaust

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes really.
Soviet citizens were various ethnicities and religions including Jewish but Hitler didn't embark on a campaign to eliminate Soviet citizens in general
I'm not denying the Armenian genocide or any of the others that have occurred but none of them were anything like as large or comprehensive as the Holocaust

That's not a good 5-year plan
And although I don't see it that way, I suppose you do agree that some people could indeed take offense at playing mass genocide against mass genocide and people requesting that they place the jewish genocide above their own.

 

[AmazonQueen]

That's not a good 5-year plan
And although I don't see it that way, I suppose you do agree that some people could indeed take offense at playing mass genocide against mass genocide and people requesting that they place the jewish genocide above their own.

And I suppose you could manage to accept that the Holocaust was the largest genocide that ever occurred, an attempt to exterminate a people across dozens of nations, and stop trying to downplay it.

 

[Kyriakos]

And I suppose you could manage to accept that the Holocaust was the largest genocide that ever occurred, an attempt to exterminate a people across dozens of nations, and stop trying to downplay it.

I think you are missing the point. Imagine if someone thought you are racist for posting some stuff in favor of the genocidal ottoman empire. Now compare to how little room you seem to allow re the jewish genocide

 

[Zardnaar]

And I suppose you could manage to accept that the Holocaust was the largest genocide that ever occurred, an attempt to exterminate a people across dozens of nations, and stop trying to downplay it.

May not be the largest in terms of body count.
UN definition of genocide us fairly broad.