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So many leftist on these boards?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by aapo, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    This is what I said in my first post:

    I have no problem in providing people the most basic health care (I was being obtuse with the whole $5 a month thing). I do have a problem with providing both the rich and the poor with the exact same level of health care when they're both paying in different amounts into the system. That's highly unfair and benefits the poor while hurting the rich.

    Therefore, there should be a low-cost, flat-rate, basic level of health care afforded to everyone and then there should be health care offered at a higher price to those who want better health care. Everyone wins.
     
  2. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    :lol:

    Because everyone in Scandinavia is a doctor, and they aren't paid enough!

    Dear Mr. Internet Person, read up on your numbers, really. You're degrading most of Europe into southeast Asia, and I'd not do that if I was you. :p
     
  3. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Actually not true. It benefits the poor directly, but benefits the rich indirectly. Because it allows that poor person to return to being a net benefit to society rather than spending the rest of their lives as a net drain on society.
     
  4. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    Even with government healthcare, the rich won't be prevented from purchasing higher quality services. Just look at retirement - co-existing with social security is a very robust private sector financial services sector selling retirement solutions.
     
  5. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Actually, it doesn't. There are a number of leftist wingnuts on CFC, but by and large this board is pretty moderate.
     
  6. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    You do have a massive brain-drain away from Denmark :p
     
  7. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    Okay then, we're back where we started: define "bare minimum healthcare coverage."

    Wait, sanity?
     
  8. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    (Look before you post, :rolleyes:)
     
  9. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Most life-saving health treatments today are not low-cost. At all. They're pretty expensive. Your ideological statement of

    is therefore untrue, since a low-cost basic health care is practically impossible. Even basic wages for the doctors are quite expensive. So, as long as you believe poor people should die because they're born poor, I can't help you. You're completely ignoring the social aspect of being poor. It's not like everybody can rise and fight themselves to the top through "a little extra" hard work. It happens, but way too rarely.
     
  10. Huayna Capac357

    Huayna Capac357 Deity

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    Those poor rich people. I feel so bad for them. [violin][/violin]
     
  11. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    WHAT? WHO SAID I WAS DANISH?

    Seriously, concerning debates I use the models I know. And I know mine works. I'm sorry about it, but that's the way it is.

    :lol:
     
  12. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    That's a fairly poor reason for doing it. It's like charging a rich person $100 for a bag of chips while charging the poor guy $1, on the basis that the rich guy is rich and can afford it.

    ...Surely, you can realize when someone is being serious and they aren't, right? Of course $5 isn't a realistic figure :lol:

    I never said the bulk of tuition would be payed for by grants and scholarships. I said that there are grants and scholarships available for college as well as loans, if you had to. I don't understand why you instantly discredit loans as being feasible, as while I was in school I knew a few people who came from "poor" families who were going to school on a loan.
     
  13. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    There is a very simple solution to help the rich out here:

     
  14. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    You don't need chips to survive.
     
  15. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    See post 87.

    You put "poor" in quotation marks for some reason...:rolleyes:

    I discredit loans because families which can support them aren't all that poor, even though they might consider themselves "poor."
     
  16. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    I'm not so sure what you took offense to in my post. If a job requires a certain degree, the more people that hold that degree, the less that job is going to pay because competitive pressures from potential employees tend to drive wages downward.

    The majority of poor persons, in general, tend not to remain poor their entire lives, nor do those born into poverty tend to remain poor. So I'm not seeing the benefit to the rich here.

    More than likely something which involving a set number of visits to the doctor and not including dental insurance, surgery, medication or anything involving mental health.

    It's no more "ideological" than is your idea of universal health care, which places the majority of the tax burden on the rich for the benefit of the poor.

    You see, no one is condemning poor people to die because they're poor. In fact, no one is condemning them at all. They'll get some manner of medical attention, but if they want more then what's basic they'll have to pay for it. Same with the rich. Because someone who is richer is more apt to pay more for better health care doesn't mean that the system in inherently discriminatory against the poor. Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean that you should get it for free or discounted. The travesty is giving everyone the same care when they pay unequal amounts for it.

    And, no, I'm really not ignoring anything. It sucks to be poor but, at the same time, by virtue of being poorer than someone else you're simply not privy to the same things they are. That doesn't mean you don't deserve anything at all, because it doesn't. It simply means that you cannot expect the same as the guy who can pay more.

    Oh, and, generally, doctor's wages are lower in countries with universal health care, so a decrease in wages for doctors in the U.S. would be expected.
     
  17. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    If they become disabled, or reduced abled, because of health problems the odds of them climbing out of poverty go way, way down.
     
  18. aapo

    aapo Chieftain

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    - Two pupils go to same school. First one scores high grades, gets good job and leads happy life. Second one fails tests, starts drinking and leads miserable life. Can you say that second student's shortcomings were caused by 1. first student's success or 2. because he was treated unfairly? I don't think so, yet these two seem to be dogmas in leftist ideology.

    - If moneylender is being unreasonably greedy, should he keep his job and should his firm receive government aid? If not, where is the problem?

    - True, the three you mention should be covered by taxes, because they are essential for that equal starting position.

    - You shouldn't be in any more hole than anyone else (after receiving that government aid for equal starting position), unless you made bad choices in spite of education, like started smoking or went to debt hell with dubious moneylenders. If someone is making you offer which is bad, why should you accept it? I don't see how buying overpriced product or working underpaid job below your abilities is any different. Bad decisions just cause vicious circle. Companies are just as much craving for able workforce as unemployed people are craving for quality jobs, yet leftist ideology only sees biased one side of the story. That's why there can be happy people living on minimum wage, who really know how to get bang for their buck. There's 1.2 billion people living in whole different definition of poverty in India, yet there doesn't seem to be that much unrest? Gee, maybe someone should go tell them their poverty is fault of the bourgeoisie ;)

    - Of course there are people who are living miserable lives no matter how much support they would get from government.

    - Person should receive help from government so that he won't die. I think we both agree on this one.

    - Money lost on unmotivated studies is lost no matter what the source of that money is. Systematic loss of someone else's money is probably going to aggravate that someone else. If rich parents want to pay for their spoiled kid's education, it's money lost, but not any more than buying overpriced luxury cars. Hardworking, motivated, talented people should be educated. That is the benefit for nation as a whole, thus government should aid person with such fine attributes.
     
  19. Huayna Capac357

    Huayna Capac357 Deity

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    In this hypothetical, you do not give enough info to make that judgement. Was the second student poor? Did he have insufficient education? Did the first student have more advantages? If so, then it is 2. It is never 1 and that is never argued. Number 1 is a gigantic strawman. Crows fly away from it for miles.
     
  20. Gustave5436

    Gustave5436 Emperor

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    What makes the rich more deserving of proper (i.e. non-"basic") health care than the poor?

    Why is it unfair for the rich to pay more? Where did they get their money in the first place?

    Imagine a rich person gets 100x as much per year as a poor person. Is this because the rich person works 100x as much? If so, then it is very much unfair to take money from this hard-working wealthy person to support the lazy poor person. However, if it is because he appropriates half the value produced by 100 different poor persons per year for his own use, it's hardly "unfair" at all to take back a small portion of that to provide the poor people who support him with a decent quality of life.
     

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