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So many leftist on these boards?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by aapo, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. aapo

    aapo Chieftain

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    - Ponder this question for a while and you may realize why there are rich and poor countries in the world:

    Whose labor?

    How can it be that everyone is born naked screaming baby, but some people rise to glory and some people sink to bottom regardless of anything? No matter country, no matter parents' income, no matter physical injury. Those are just excuses. There's always someone in worse position than you doing better than you. The words "better" and "worse" here are highly subjective, because people in the world have different goals altogether. You can't say that every poor person desires to be rich. What diplomas did Michelangelo and Einstein have? They just did their stuff and that stuff is considered by many people nowadays pretty darn impressive. Living on one's human rights never gave happiness to anyone.
     
  2. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    Food? Yes. Housing? Yes. Health care? No.

    We're not exactly able to provide universal health care in the way that doctors cost money, equipment costs money and vaccines and other medication cost money. The only way to afford those things under a universal health care system would be to tax the wealthy out of the wazoo because, presumably, those who are poor or even middle class would not be able to afford regular visits to the doctor or surgery or the latest in modern medicine. Maybe, if all of these things were free I'd agree with you, but they're not.

    There is a big difference. For one, it wouldn't be forced and, secondly, it would be available to all, not just a certain socio-economic class. You seem to be under the impression that because the rich would be most likely to purchase better health insurance plans that it would only benefit them while ignoring the fact that anyone else could purchase the same plans, only it would impact them moreso than it would the rich.

    And what you're arguing is that the poor should get the best health care at a drastically reduced cost simply because they're poor, which makes little sense. Once again I ask, what's the point of being higher up on the socio-economic totem pole if someone who is on a lower rung gets the exact same as you do, only cheaper? Yes, it sucks to be poor but, no, life isn't fair. You don't fight unfairness by punishing those who are successful simply because they're successful. Indeed, if we wanted to be totally unfair we could tell the poor to pound sand and that they'd get no medical treatment because they can't pay for it. But that would be inhuman.

    Who was speaking of jewelry? There are only three things humans "need": food, shelter and water (Oxygen, too, but that's kind of a given). Anything outside of these three things are wants. Health care is a want, not a need. It might help us to live longer and more comfortably, but it's not absolutely crucial for our survival. Indeed, humans have survives for thousands of years without it. Of course, people shouldn't be hung out to dry. Everyone should get some level of health care, but if you want the best of it you should pay for it.

    It's incredibly asinine to me to insist on charging someone something like $200 for a surgery which would cost someone else $20,000, simply because the second person makes more money than the first. Granted, that's a bit simplified, but that's exactly the kind of system you advocate-- One where everyone gets the same benefits only one person is charged more for them simply because he makes more.
     
  3. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Tell that to a kid with cystic fibrosis.
     
  4. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    This amused me. :)

    Tell me, dear aapo; what is your viewpoint on a person with depression? Does he excuse?
     
  5. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    I know what I said and I saw what you quoted. Now go back and read what I wrote out again, and see how it holds no bearing to what you typed out or the link you tried to make.

    Which would be why I said I wouldn't like it if I had to pay for it -.-'

    It's closer to either forcing the rich guy to pay $1.50 for a $1 bag of chips he didn't want in the first place or forcing the rich to pay $11.50 for the best potato chips in the world which used to cost him $10 while offering those same potato chips to the poor guy for $.50.

    Either the rich guy gets stuck with something he doesn't want or need or he ends up paying more for something he used to get for less while the poor guy pays less for something which used to be out of his reach. I'm still waiting for the logic in that because, as of yet, there is none outside of "The rich guy is rich so he can afford it!".

    Or, we can just reserve the best medical treatment to those willing to pay for it. Either or.

    Maybe you misread but I wasn't talking about getting into a university, but rather the job market and wages after graduating from a university. If a job requires a certain degree and many people hold that degree, then competitive pressures will drive the wages of that job down, as someone is going to be willing to work for less than you will or you vice versa.

    Neither are the disgruntled.

    Life-saving health care isn't low-cost. Yes. I'm pretty sure we all know as much. Who said differently? But to say that there is no such thing as "low-cost basic health care" to be wrong, since the word 'basic' would denote something simple.

    Anyway, I sense a lot of disdain for the wealthy, which doesn't surprise me all that much. Some got lucky, yes, and some worked hard. It's the same with the poor. Some just got unlucky and some work hard at it. But that's just the way life is. Punishing the wealthy for being wealthy and rewarding the poor for being poor just isn't the way to go.

    Luckily, I never said any of the aforementioned about doctors. Someone (I forgot who) said something about doctor's wages and I pointed out that, in countries with universal health care (Which, last I checked, were more than just Scandanavia) wages were lower so doctors in the U.S. could also expect a similar decrease in wages if universal health care were to happen here.

    No. Food is just a necessity of life is all.

    I was trying to make the point that the wealthy buy food which is generally out-of-reach of the not-so-wealthy. Sure, everyone has the right to live, but how does this translate to a "right to health care"? That's what I want to know. To food? Yes. To water? Yes. To shelter? Yes. But to health care? Nope. Sorry. Just not seeing it. Yes, we all want to be healthy, but that is something the person in question should pay to maintain-- Not a third party.

    Anyway, I just reached a compromise. How about we let the people who want universal health care pay the increase in taxes and those who don't want it to pay no increase in taxes? If that were to ever happen, though, the outcry would be horrific, mainly because the rich shoulder the overwhelming burden of tax increases.
     
  6. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Bei, are you a farmer? You sure seem to have a gigantic amount of strawmen.

    I hate to break this to you, but if you don't get that illness treated, you're going, to, well, die. Just like you'd die if you starved to death, or if you had to live in the streets without clothes.

    And yet, we have far more money than we need to pay for the health care of every person in the country and then some. It's just not in the hands of people that need it. The rich will not be taxed that much more, and it will not impact their life in the slightest. However, it will mean that everyone can get the healthcare they deserve as a human being, regardless of socio-economic status.

    Except for one crucial point: They cannot afford those health care plans.

    In universal healthcare, everyone gets exactly the same care, for exactly the same price. They just have to pay more taxes for it. Progressive tax systems are true for everything, why not here?

    And, if you do end up the one with disease x, you'll likely be paying less money through taxes to a UHC system than if you had to pay to get it treated yourself.

    We are not punishing the successful. They still will be better off then the poor in terms of house, car, etc. We don't expect the government to pay for that, just for things needed to keep people alive and in good health.

    So you're willing to let people with horrible diseases, that could get treatment for them to save their lives or at least make their deaths less painful, not get treated simply because they're too poor? Even though all would be well if the selfish people would just pay a little bit more tax dollars, you don't want that to happen because they don't deserve it? People are people, regardless of economic status, and they deserve access to health care that could easily be given to them. Have you ever met someone who's really sick, but too poor to pay for the health care required to either ease their pain, cure their disease, or keep them alive? It just sucks to be them, as you've worded it, and there isn't a damn thing they can do about it simply because of lack of money. What did they do to deserve that?

    Would you like that strawman bended or straight?
     
  7. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    I might think it, but I'm not that mean.
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    I don't see this analogy going anywhere, because, you do realize, this is one of the fundamental "freedoms" in the free-market that is often so highly touted- That a seller can haggle over price, sell at whatever price to whomever they want, and isn't obligated to sell to anyone ("We don't serve Your Kind here"). They could simply decide not to sell to you because they don't like you or for no reason at all.
     
  9. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Or we can simply kill all the rich asses who incesantly whine about how bad they have it while creating the original problem to get rich off everybody else's suffering in the first place.

    This is the main reason why I'm not any more conservative than I already am. The whole premise of the right has mainly turned into a rationalization to exploit people to get even richer. They don't believe in small government with limited power anymore. They don't believe in setting up an economic system that is fair and equitable to everybody. They believe in getting even richer off of special interests and big government to the detriment of everybody else.
     
  10. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    I understand supply-demand. And you still don't get my point. It's pretty straightforward even; a university costs 100$ to enter. That university has the capacity for 10 students, therefore it takes the best 10 students it can get. 10 students make it through class and applicates for being a doctor. Another university is free to enter. It recieves 900$ from the state (Which is cheaper, since that university does not need to make profit. Oh, and it is cheaper, do the math). That university has the capacity for 10 students. 10 students make it through class and applicates for being a doctor.

    And this, Mr. Internet Guy, is why Europe isn't suffocating.

    What are you talking about? Please rephrase.

    What a load of butt. My whole family is wealthy. :p

    You're not saying why being allowed to live doesn't equalize with the right to live. Anyways, your respect for life has begun to get to my stomach, really. Your logic states that a wealthy person has a more important life than a poor person; and that, simply, is that the luxuries of the wealthy person's life is more worth than the basics of a poor person's life. And yes, I consider living pretty basic in life.

    Are you, a liberal, proposing ensurance through the state? You're weird. :p

    But no, it wouldn't work, for obvious reasons. Well, it would, but the quality of that system wouldn't even be decent enough basic healthcare.
     
  11. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    You advocate it though.
     
  12. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    One the one hand, school is a gamble worth risking potentially crushing debt, while on the other hand, providing health care is not a gamble worth taking because maybe someone getting healthy won't become non-poor. I don't see how what you said can be spun any other way.
     
  13. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Excuses? Really?

    Rawls pwns you.
     
  14. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    When I first joined in 2002 I was pretty apolitical. My folks are libertarian & their philosophy seemed ok on the surface (though in the rare occasion I'd actually think about it I saw quite a few problems with it). The longer I live though & the more I learn the less sense conversativism (which has been a joke anyway) makes to me. Modern industrial capitalism in general has shown itself to be fatally flawed & any pretense of maintaining it wastes time that should be spent fashioning new systems that work.
     
  15. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    I go with whatever works. Seems to be the best way of doing things to me.
     
  16. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Flip-flopper! :thumbsdown: You have to stick with some pre-detirmined philosophy regardless of what reality teaches you! :mad:
     
  17. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Yeah, I suck. Like Danton except not as ugly. :p
     
  18. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    We all know how that ended up.
     
  19. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    Nope and nope.

     
  20. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Health care reform idea: let the poor die from their health issues.
     

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