So ok, let us talk about possible further Releases ...

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I repeatedly read questions from community members about further development of the mod.
We also started talking again about further plans and possible further Releases for WTP internally.

To be honest, I simply do not know.
So let us talk about it.

The following is addressed mainly to team members, supporters and interested modders.
(Others may comment of course, but it will most likely not help us much to clarify.)

From what I figure:

1. Community is really small but still loyal and interested
2. The most contributing team members of last release are still around
3. However none of us seem to be motivated to get the show started on their own

From my experiences last release:
(Which I do not want to repeat.)

1. We did not really have a common vision.
2. Team communication was extremely lacking.
3. Onboarding of further team members and supporters failed.

-> Getting a release done was really exhausting.
-> Some team members stopped contributing and left the project out of frustration.
-> Many supporters did not really contibute at all, even if they were willing to do so they did not know how to.

Questions: To the remaining contributing team members:

1. Do you guys want to give it another try?
How is your current motivation and availability?

2. What is it that you guys still want? What is our common vision?
Just bugfixes and improvements (including graphics) or further new features as well?

3. Do you guys feel that we can get a team going again?
Meaning that all team members communicate properly and take their fair share of responsibility.

4. What was bad and what was good?
How can we improve this time?

Please be honest.

If we feel that we are motivated enough to do it better than last release ok, I am in.
I would be willing to do more features (from our list) and also a few bugfixes and improvements.

If we feel that it is going to be the same as last release, then sorry I am not in.
(Lack of vision, lack of communication, lack of to taking fair share of effort and responsibility, ...)

We succeeded in publishing a release that was bigger and better then ever, true.
But ask yourself: Was it fun for you? Was our team working as it could and should have?

---------

And to be clear: This is not about blaming anybody.
(Such discussions are childish and useless.)

It was not anybodys personal fault that the team work was poor and last release was somehow frustrating.
And it also was really bad circumstances with pesonal situations and Covid19 !

Keeping up the motivation to still work on this project after almost 10 years of modding is incredible !
(Counting just RaR and WTP. TAC not included.)

---------

To other modders, former team members and supporters:

Is there anybody still out there that is able and willing to join or at least contribute.
It would really be awesome to get more team members on board again.

It is not necessary to be an experienced programmer or graphical modders.
(Although that would be cool and makes understanding Civ4Col modding much easier.)

Knowing a little XML often already suffices to help e.g. with writing texts or improving balancing.
Even just helping us as internal feature testers or beta testers already speeds up progress.

---------

By the way:
We do not even have to continue now.
If you feel it would better to try again in 6 months, just say so.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

hi Ray, hi people)

I am ready to continue to provide all possible assistance in the development of the mod. Yes, I don’t have skills that could be useful to the team, but I can be a tester. In addition, I do not lose hope of resolving the problem of translation into Russian) if there are any suggestions for introducing new functions, it will be possible to think about texts. however, I can do this only after the end of the "biker season"))) but I can participate a bit now.

and in any case, thank you for this mod)))

 

[Razbo]

Hi,

You don't know me, so please allow me to introduce myself. I am one of those folks who started playing Civ 2 decades ago.

I've always thought Civ 4 was the best incarnation in the series, and I've always had a soft spot for Civ4 Col. For no particular reason, I fired up Civ4 Col a couple weeks ago after not looking at it for years. One thing led to another, and I found WTP. All I can say is "Wow!" What an achievement! You should all be very, very proud. It is really quite astounding.

I came to civfanatics today to respond to another thread, specifically the thread talking about adding maintenance/upkeep for military units. I had some ideas that might or might be of interest. I may do that yet.

But having seen this message, where Ray is asking, "Where do we go from here?" any idea I might have had seemed a bit superfluous.

I note there hasn't been very much WTP activity for several months. A worldwide pandemic has a way of getting one's attention, and resetting priorities. I don't know how Europeans are feeling about getting on with your lives, but where I am (USA) I think it's going to be a good long while before any semblance of normal returns.

If you decide to get going again, I might actually be useful to the cause. I am comfortably retired now, but I spent ~35 years getting paid to write software as an independent contractor. I spent a lot of time with my nose buried chasing down bugs. More recently I was writing C code that ran on a device that had no operating system. I know C++, but it's been a while; I've never written in Python.

The good news is that I usually know enough to know what I don't know. I know that just setting up the environment to be able to change one line of code, rebuild the entire project and fire up the debugger is likely to be non-trivial. The learning curve for the code base is undoubtedly steep; it's easy to be stymied by something simple if you haven't seen it before.

Take care and stay well.

- Bob in Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

 

[raystuttgart]

I think the deicision has just been made half an hour ago.
(After we really actually started discussing again ... which was overdue.)

We are planning to continue the mod !!!

So we are currently again in the progress of contacting the few remaining modders, finding new members we know and building up the team again.
Meanwhile we are also trying to setup agreements and plans on how to structure our work and on what aspects and new features we are going to focus first.

The team was going through a quite rough release last time.
And yes, Covid19 really impacted us heavily.

But it seems like we can recover again ...
(The core team is still intact and we can build up on it.)

@Razbo :
I am currently still engaged in internal team discussions and private conversation with former modding colleagues.
I will contact you the next days.
Thanks for your offer to join.

@Mr. ZorG :
Nice to have you back on board again as well.
We really need to get the Russian translation going some day.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

I periodically read the forum and communicate)
just in the summer I have slightly different priorities ...
but I'm here)

 

[Ramstormp]

I am so glad. I thought maybe I had somehow ruined the future of the community with my awkward and negative ways. I too would like to contribute. The new founding city mechanic and changing canons seem quite easy; and even the health based on buildings feature is probably within my skill level... looks doable after some trial and error. Would be a fun learning experience for me. I have some limited graphic skills too, I guess. I have some time in the summer and more in the winter.

 

[Derek Brown]

Unfortunately I have no real skills to offer, just an end user. I've programmed quite a bit a while back in a language similar to C and BASIC called Euphoria, so enough to know how challenging coding is but not enough to be of help. Interesting to read raystuttgart and see from the outside in on team struggles. I'm sure we all can relate. Knowing that was a challenge to get done, that makes me appreciate the final product even more plus the sacrifices made by all the modders.

 

[raystuttgart]

The new founding city mechanic and changing canons seem quite easy;

Actually these 2 are almost the most difficult ones we still have on our "planned list".
(Except the giant feature concepts like e.g. Techs and Large Rivers.)

Coding the basic feature logic so it will work for Human Player is a peace of cake.
Basically it is just adapting XML configuration (for Changing Units to Professions) and wheren necessary adding a few new tags in XML-Schema for logic changes.

Unit AI logic can indeed also almost stay the same.
But adapting (or programming new) Player AI logic so it can handle the new game features properly without completely ruining the AI balance is pretty though.

• Player AI needs to provide and keep the necessary Yields so it can equip these Professions as needed without carelessly neglecting other Yields.
  
• Player AI needs to equip these new Professions in a balanced and reasonable amount.

Summary:
Programming good AI logic is one of the most difficult things in Civ4Col modding.
There are simply so many possible game scenarios, so many AI priorities that need to be kept in balance and so many dependencies between the game mechanics.

 

[Ramstormp]

I see, I thought maybe you left those out because it was just too easy and therefore boring. I suppose I could maybe do the cake piece part, and then fiddle around with the AI logic just for the educational experience and report if I somehow succeed in striking a good balance.

 

[raystuttgart]

I see, I thought maybe you left those out because it was just too easy and therefore boring.

No, I was afraid of weakening AI and thus making the game less challenging and fun.
For Release 2.8 I wanted to be "on the safe side" and only implemented features where I was pretty sure they would succeed.

I just wanted to explain that there is more challenge in those features than you might expect at the moment.
From a Human perspective featues often sound really easy but then it turns out that this -bleep- AI simple does not understand it.

I suppose I could maybe do the cake piece part, and then fiddle around with the AI logic just for the educational experience and report if I somehow succeed in striking a good balance.

Sure, go ahead.
Modding is a lot about motivation and fun.

If you later on have questions about implementation, just ask.
We can discuss technical details in the internal modders chat in Slack.

 

[scottfreitas]

As one of your longest of long-term players, I'm excited to hear y'all are planning to do another WTP update.

My main suggestion is simply to work on making the AI opponents more aggressive. Particularly the Europeans, towards their fellow Europeans. This would be very historically accurate, and would also make the gameplay more interesting. Make the AIs both more warlike AND better at waging war. This was something the original 1994 Colonization excelled at. All the AIs in that game were aggressive, and very good at troop movements. They could find your colonies no matter WHERE you located them! And get right up in your face, too!

There are so many more native tribes in this current iteration of WTP you can afford to have a nice mix of personalities among the natives, though. Some tribes should be hyper-aggressive (Aztecs, Tupis, Arawaks, Apaches, Comanches, Sioux among others), while others more peaceful and agricultural, far more interested in trading with colonists than raiding them (Incas, Mayas, Cherokee for example).


Best of luck in getting started, and anxiously awaiting to see what you come up with =)

 

[Acheron81]

Hi, I'm another ghost player. I've never posted here but I absolutely love this mod! I just wanted to chime in to let you know that I'm still here, still playing and hoping this mod won't die. I'll keep the introduction short because I want to tell you about what I've been working on...

For several months now I've been working on a highly detailed, geographically accurate map of North and South America. The map spans from 74 degrees north to 60 degrees south and from 30 degrees west to 179 degrees west. It includes Alaska, Hawaii, Greenland, and all of the major islands within that range. I'm aiming to place all of the Indian tribes in historically accurate locations, and to get the AI colonies to settle in historically accurate locations where possible. There is not going to be much space on the map that is not occupied by an Indian tribe. I want this to be a challenge! In my play tests so far it seems to be a fun map to play on.

I know you already have a few maps like this, but being a geography nerd I thought that I could do it better and decided to take the plunge and attempt one myself. Needless to say I didn't realize what a huge undertaking this would be, but once I got started I couldn't stop. I have a huge amount of respect for the guys that made the existing maps. This is hard work! It's taking a while because I'm only working a few hours here and there and spending a lot of time on research. But at this point I would say that I'm 60 - 70% finished. When I'm done I would be happy to share it with you all if you'd like. Here is a preview. Please ignore the latitude and longitude lines in the ocean:



That's all I want to share for now as I still have some gameplay decisions to make. When I'm finished I'll make a detailed preview with download links and everything. Any comments or feedback are appreciated. GG's to all and thanks again for making this amazing mod!

 

[scottfreitas]

For several months now I've been working on a highly detailed, geographically accurate map of North and South America. The map spans from 74 degrees north to 60 degrees south and from 30 degrees west to 179 degrees west. It includes Alaska, Hawaii, Greenland, and all of the major islands within that range. I'm aiming to place all of the Indian tribes in historically accurate locations, and to get the AI colonies to settle in historically accurate locations where possible. There is not going to be much space on the map that is not occupied by an Indian tribe. I want this to be a challenge! In my play tests so far it seems to be a fun map to play on.

I for one really hope you finish the map and find a way to make it available to all of us here! I love historically accurate maps! ;D

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I am just posting this here to ensure community that WTP still continues.
Several team members are still working on their branches and may share or publish once they are ready.

It seems that WTP has become a "real modding community project" now. So community also needs to organize itself.
Meaning that active modders will work together losely - basically simply without central and public coordination or planning.

Thus feel free to work on whatever you want, but please share it with other modders and if you like also publish yourself.
(e.g. just like @Raubwuerger had done with his "Happiness Overview in Domestic Advisor")

The method of integration into WTP core mod and the publishing of its releases will need to be clarified.
I still believe that a WTP core mod should exist so it can be available conveniently for players.

Everybody is of course also free to develop and publish mod-mods.
(Please give credits to all participants and also WTP/RaR/TAC though - see WTP core mod credits.)

------
About this forum and team chat:

This forum could be used by modding community to organize itself.
However there is also the internal team chat for active modders.

• Please continue to post bugs if you find any.
  
• Discuss your ideas and share your work.
• Search for help and share advice.
• Organize small sub-projects (e.g. for larger features) if you like.
• Organize integration of your work into core mod or mod-mods.
• Organize or announce releases of core mod or mod-mods.

------
About myself:

Spoiler :

As I said, I retire from active public modding. (I might continue privately and share my work but I will not publish myself.)
I explicitly repeat that because I still get posts or messages with ideas and requests for WTP.

I am a "normal community member" again - instead of a "team member" that stupidly acted like a "care taker" or "project coordinator".
(Meaning I will not try to plan or organize or integrate or publish or find agreements for anything considering WTP core mod.)

Please do not write me personally anymore in this forum. - I will not react to that because it happened way too often.
(If you are a modder and would like some technical advice considering CivCol modding then please write me in the team chat.)

------
Summary:

WTP continues but it seems that we have strongly decentralized as a modders network.
It needs to organize itself organically. This may also prove to be a real chance for community.

Let us simply continue to have fun playing and modding this game.