So.. the AI does not know how to wage war?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Rince, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. Rince

    Rince King

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    Having won a game on Prince and following the many threads here that note that the AI is completely incompetent at waging war, I confidently started a King game the other day.

    I chose the Japanese and planned to conquer my starting continent with a Samurai rush.

    Everything was going fine, I had a lot of space to expand and was just contemplating on trying a more peaceful approach than in my last game when out of the blue, Alexander declared war on me (he wiped out two city states and the Roman Empire to warm up).

    Easy, I thought. I will just destroy his units one by one as soon as they reach my border. But man was I wrong:

    Spoiler :


    This is right after having declared on me! And a few turns later, the situation looked like this:

    Spoiler :


    I lost a city and a second wave of fresh units marched towards my capital. This is not the initial army that took Tokyo. That one is still well and alive, hiding in the fog of war.
    Needless to say that I lost my capital and the game :(

    I was surprised and slightly relieved to loose a game on this level. Nice to see that there is challenge in this game, at least for me.

    What this short war demonstrates is that on the operational level, the AI is capable of some good planning. He clearly amassed his troops before attacking me and split the attack into two parts (this might be coincidence though). However, on the tactical level, the AI is a disaster. Especially the first screenshot represents exactly how not to wage war. All siege units are in the front and the melee units in the back.

    Still, was fun. Now to start another King game. This time I will concentrate on my army!
     
  2. waytofailself

    waytofailself Chieftain

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    yeah, it only takes once to learn that you need to actually build military units. you could have taken him if you had some more out there. i mean, did you see how the ai placed its catapults?
     
  3. GeneralMayhem

    GeneralMayhem Chieftain

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    not sure if the AI is smart, but certain civs like alexander make it a point to build a large army early on especially on higher difficulty levels. so best to get a sizeable army up quickly. i usually get 3 to 5 archers and a city with walls will kill most AI armies easily.

    also, he placed his catapult up front, which isn't too smart if you ask me :p
     
  4. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I have a word for you , just one word ( well, more than one ): catapults on the first line
     
  5. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    I play on king level too, and this attack is better than what I've seen yet. The AI does do some good things, like following up a war dec with an army ready to strike.

    You do see him walking into the fight with his three catapults first, parking them up against the city, and thats what people kinda dislike alot, of course.

    But what is good is that he has opgraded his units and are attacking with hoplites in force, and not a shabby throw-together in the first wave and then a dribble of rifraf like it's more often seen.

    The AI has a much easier time using the strong melee footsoldier that is the eras military bread and butter, and this is probably why it succeded.

    Try giving a Citystate crossbowmen and horsemen for instance to defend itself. It will throw the forces away. But give it Swordsmen or longswordmen and your units suddenly make a difference.

    You also have open country, and while that is bad strategically, it is the scenario where the AI can come up with a challenge. And thus give you a good game.

    So what you ran into is more or less the AI's best case scenario, one we can only hope we will see more often. Many melee footsoldiers and a few supporting units, which a patch will need to teach it to play better with.

    Naval combat though will never have you get a surprise like this though, hope it might soon.
     
  6. stormerne

    stormerne is just a Retired Moderator

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    For AI's "good planning" read simply "good preparation", which in reality just means building a bunch of units and having them ready. The AI's planning beyond the declaration of war is undeniably poor.

    The AI's strategy of amassing units is relatively sound. Its tactics of how to deploy those units is poor. It's still possible to overwhelm the AI with superior firepower or, if you have slightly inferior firepower, with superior deployment and dynamics. It's especially poor in defense and holds little in reserve, so counterattacking against those poorly deployed units and minimal tactics will usually cause a rout. But having no defensive reserve yourself is just asking for trouble!
     
  7. MadRat

    MadRat Cheese Raider

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    Yeah had you any real units you could have taken out those catapaults quickly and his hoplites would have been toast to a Samurai city bombard combo.

    The AI is dumb but it spams a LOT of units at high level - so you actually need an army to win - but not an overwhelming one. You could have held that 4 hex pass north of kyoto easily.

    Rat
     
  8. BrianSpiller

    BrianSpiller Chieftain

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    Reminded me of "I just want to say one word to you. Just one word... plastics"

    On topic though, I have found that you can easily fend off an army that size by just having a few good units (samurai for example) and being careful with them. Don't leave them exposed and allow them to drop back and heal if they need to. Of course, you will need to build some units for that to work.
     
  9. GeneralMayhem

    GeneralMayhem Chieftain

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    just to add to the AI is smart argument.

    i often find that the AI will almost always 1. build large alpha force; 2. target closest civ.

    this can be surprisingly easy to counter if you have a good defensible position and can successful kill most of the AI units. once you have successfully taken out the majority of AI units, you can counter attack and easily march on AI cities with almost no resistance: the AI will ask for peace quickly. unless the AI is Darius and can spit out immortals in mass quantities :lol:
     
  10. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    AI is inconsistent, by design. Start next to Ramses and you can rush him early and get some nice free wonders.

    But if Monty starts alone on the other size of the continent on a large map and you're pinned to the edge of another waging war to gain land, watch out.

    I just got rifle rushed by Monty in an emperor game. Wiped out my army which was half the size but only slightly behind in tech. I'm going to reload and try the 'mother russia' strategy, pulling support for the city states I was trying to defend and defending inside my borders.
     
  11. }{ELL/\/()

    }{ELL/\/() Warlord

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    I am playing an earth based map as the English on King and my gripes with war so far are as such:

    The AI doesnt build any navy (maybe had 1 tri) but continues to embark high value units into the water when I have 4 caravels. This even when there is a land route (I took rome from the french and alexander keeps walking musketmen into the adriatic)

    The AI doesnt anticipate well. Napoleon was going around wrecking havoc with swordsmen, he killed the romans and was fighting the russians. All of a sudden he DoW's me, I build up some knights and longbowmen and take his three largest cities before his units get back from the front and he seeks peace.

    The AI builds too many units early and cripples their science leaving them with ineffectual units and doesnt seem to upgrade. I know when I went to war with Bismark with lancers and riflemen he had the tech for musketmen but only had 2 the rest were all archers and swordsmen.

    The AI ignores my threats. Seriously, I just castrated two of the most powerful empires out there and I tell some weaker nation to stop attacking a city state im friends with. He tells me to piss off. Now I'm trying to do a science victory, but if people keep ignoring me and I have to go beating them with my beating stick its not going to happen. I've already had everyone and city states concerned with my war mongering. I'm 9 techs ahead of the next civ and well in the score lead. What do I have to do to get someone to listen to my threats?

    Also, unrelated to the AI longbowmen are friggin overpowered, the extra range is ridiculous, they need to be tweaked.
     
  12. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

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    Win a Domination victory, unfortunately. :rolleyes:

    So yeah, I hear you... this sounds very similar to my own experiences so far.

    But hey, listen, the AI is actually secretly very complex and devious! You just have to "think about it differently" and then all of the inane decisions the AI civs make will suddenly shine with brilliance, and all the idiotic self-defeating crap that they pull will become masterful strategy!

    You just came into the game with the wrong expectations. This isn't Civ 4, you know. ;)

    :sarcasm:
     

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