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So they still haven't fixed the AI with regard to war.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Zinowolf, Mar 3, 2019.

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  1. MrRadar

    MrRadar Chieftain

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    Careful with statements like these:
    They are all mostly incorrect and just show, that you did not bother to know the game better and made your opinion on rather superficial first impressions or only played on low difficulties.

    Thoughtless overpowering with bigger stacks and paying no attention to stack composition, unit promotion or terrain may work on lower difficulties, where you can easily achieve superiority in numbers, but as you advance to higher ones, your AI opponents most likely will have bigger stacks pretty much always. And then, then you have to discover, that CIV IV surely have tactics, because every unit you manage to make is precious and you do not want to sacrifice them in vain attacking an opponent across a river, on a hill, in a forest or jungle. Then you learn about stack composition, promotion lines, sacrificing catapults, with which units to attack first, etc., because taking or not taking one single specific city this specific turn can make or break your entire game.

    When you go conquering, your army only moves one tile in enemy territory, so you must consider in what order to take cities so that their receding culture would allow faster progress of your troops. And so on.

    Stack combat definitely has tactics and bigger stack not necessarily beats smaller stack every time. Unless it is reasoned, that originally bigger stack was kicked in the teeth so hard by originally smaller stack that it ultimately became the smaller one of the two, and the new and freshly bigger stack ultimately won over now suddenly smaller stack ;)
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Saying "bigger stack wins" in Civ 4 is an indication that the player does not know how to fight in Civ 4. Move carelessly into an above-average player's territory with 150% strength relative to his and you will have no units left in that stack two turns later. At equal tech.

    The AI sucked tactically back then, too. Less so than now, but it still sucked.

    Civ 4 is not quite 20 years old yet. That's more the HOMM 3/Warlords 3 era. Though it's true that modern Civ games have an inferior UI to Warlords 2, which was made before 1995. That AI was weak too, but many of the game's systems were far ahead of its time. Good game genres picked up on some of them. TBS appears to have forgotten them entirely, which is the only explanation for why a game 25 years later has less useful hotkeys, slower inputs, more #inputs for basic tasks, and significantly more opaque mechanics in-game to the extent of outright hiding rules.
     
  3. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    This brings up a relevant question, however. HoMM3 AI was quite adept at moving around its units and applying different types of units in a setting that's not too different from, say, a group of Civ units trying to take a city. So why is Civ5/6 AI so completely incompetent at this? I mean, one thing is having troupes getting stuck/jammed from time to time, but why do we still have AI charging in with (unguarded) settlers or support units as their frontrunners? And why is it that after all this time, I still at this very day see AI being stuck taking down a city for 10+ turns, because they have 5 siege units and 3 ranged naval units hitting on the city at 0 health each turn, but fail to grasp that they actually need to bring in a melee or cavalry unit to conquer the city?

    Example image from my current game - this has gone on for numerous turns:
    upload_2019-3-20_0-44-52.png
     
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  4. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    I would love to play a BTS MP match against you. Can it be for money pretty please??? :D
     
  5. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Lul like "the larger carpet of ranged units wins" is any more thought provoking
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Last night I saw 2 warriors and a slinger attack Nan Madol.
    The 2 warriors died and the slinger was 90% damaged but sat there 90% damaged by itself attacking the CS for the next 20 turns until I could declare a protectorate.
    There is such a large variety of examples in every game.
    If people are waiting for an AI that is vox decent then it is unlikely to come from Firaxis. And it is not just Firaxis with this issue.
     
  7. Abaxial

    Abaxial Chieftain

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    I'm also noticing that the AI has difficulty managing great people. Time and time again I have penetrated AI civ territory (using religious units as scouts) and found great people just milling around doing nothing.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    In some ways it could, at least if the AI builds enough it would bog down game performance so much that it's impossible to finish the game in a typical session. Since it can't actually play the game it instead challenges player patience. That's a battle I already lose.
     
  9. Bradypus

    Bradypus Chieftain

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    I hope you two realize I was purposely exaggerating to make a point. The point being that new system, which doesn't allow mass stacking, allows for many more options and consequences in regard to unit movement and placement. I don't think it's justified that it's impossible to kill a unit in one turn if the opposing pile is bigger (assuming 1 attack per turn). Sure there's strategy involved in CIV 4, but for combat it revolves around what I would call tedious factors. The focus for combat in CIV 3-4 is numbers, composition, promotions and attack order, whereas movement and placement (which makes for more possibilities and fun) takes on a relatively small role in comparison to CIV 5-6. And surely the benchmark for what constitutes an above-average player's combat abilities is more than knowing not to attack when facing significant -% strength modifiers. That being said, CIV 4 is a great game. I just don't care for the combat.

    And just for the record, I can beat any CIV game on any difficulty. ;)

    Hey man. I'll save you the embarrassment and decline ;)
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Troop positioning is more important in Civ 4 than either Civ 5 or Civ 6. They even made that more true with the recent buff to walls in Civ 6.

    The time to take/raze cities is faster in 4, and terrain/defensive modifiers swing combat odds more.

    So can we. Player vs player tactics are far beyond the AI though. SP is more a matter of stabilizing + getting enough resources to handle the AI bonuses. The AI is tactically awful in every civ game, but 1UPT reduced the amount of pure frontage it could throw around using its production bonuses. Further buffing the defender killed most of the threat. The only realistic way to lose if you're decent tactically is to get outraced to a VC, but in the newer titles the AI is also slow to win in that regard so both threat of enemy attack and urgency to attack the enemy are reduced...
     
  11. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Thank you. Abusing children is always embarrassing. ;)
     
  12. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Instancing seems to help a lot. AoW and EL both instance and are slightly more challenging than Civ V and VI. Standard map sizes, starting points, etc probably make it easier for AI to handle.
     
  13. Iberian

    Iberian Chieftain

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    You can build 8 units in the first 2-3 eras on any level and conquer the whole world without building another. That's iffy game mechanics.
     
  14. Bradypus

    Bradypus Chieftain

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    What isn't more important in Civ 4?
     
  15. japanesesamurai

    japanesesamurai Chieftain

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    If you see an enemy submarine in a one tile fresh water lake for 50 years without moving, you know its a clear case of Lazy Programming. No more, no less.
    I know nothing about programming, but some flaws are easily solved with a simple if - then line.
    To program a tactical genius is a different matter, I’m sure.
    In CIV5, AI builts 10 submarines to coastal raid a city. Or declares war and moves melee ships towards a non coastal city to sit there forever until they offer a peace treaty with 37 cities. So more often than not, AI builts/sends melee ships to capture non-coastal city and subs to capture coastal city.
    A couple of easy script lines can easily delete stupidity like this, I am sure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  16. Gregolution

    Gregolution Chieftain

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    This is the worst over simplification of a problem I've seen in a while.

    First of all this is some seriously complex software, finding niche cases like this can be incredibly difficult and can be the result of hundreds of thousands of lines of logic spread out across a huge code base. Software isn't built as one gigantic script of if else statements..... in fact the worst sort of programming practice is to do what you described above.

    There may well be problems with the AI but what you think should be an easy fix here or there is just not true. Especially in a codebase like Civs that's grown for decades. Rest assured it's a much more complicated issue than you'd imagine
     
  17. L4Psha

    L4Psha Chieftain

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    I think it's just because maybe he has no places for great works. I had once such problem with writers.
     
  18. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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    No, that is not the reason. I observe a lot of situations when GWAMs are just standing or wandering about and there are places in wonders or theater squares.
    The behavior tree node "Find Unit Targets" is bugged somehow and it returns FAILURE. Thus entire tree is blocked and GWAM is stuck.
    My theory is that this node is not refreshed when new buildings are built. Because only "old" GWAMs get stuck. When a new GWAM is recruited and there is a place for a GW, all works ok. But when there is no place at the time of recruitment, then it gets stuck and even when later a new building is available, it does not get "unstuck".

    Oh, there is also a second reason why sometimes GWAMs get stuck. But it is a bit rare. Sometimes the tree gets stuck on "Protect Unit" node.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Naval advantage on water maps (comparable between games), UN vs world congress, culture vs loyalty, xp farming/promotions, pillaging (as of GS), overflow (civ 4 bugged it and never fixed), government vs policy cards (timing swaps to optimize is more complex in Civ 6), eurekas/inspirations (no Civ 4 parallel) all come to mind offhand. I'm sure there are others.

    I do consider Civ 4 the better game overall, with a lot of that coming down to a better progression/expansion phase design and the fact that the UI isn't hot garbage (Civ 4 UI is more mediocre than dumpster fire like its successors), but it's not like Civ 6 didn't make some improvements.
     
  20. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    The looks?
     

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