Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Victoria, May 23, 2020.
Isn't non-aggression pact the only function of friendships?
Good argument, GS has so much more gold than Vanilla. And much of it comes from deals with the AI (which makes the game more random). I think this is a terrible direction for the game to go. 1) It needs more micromanagement. 2) You spend too much time trading away stuff which is utterly tedious 3) The availability of strategics and diplo favors more or less decides how fast you snowball early game, which makes games more RNG dependant.
Your gold income is less dependant on Trade Routes, Commerce Hub buildings, or luxuries, and especially in the early game is 80% strategics and diplo favor.
People complain about it all the time. It has made Deity completely trivial and getting backstabbed is now literally impossible. It's just so incredibly dumb I have no idea why they ever went for it. Maybe it pleases peaceful/builder style players?
A lot of people apparently hated the surprise backstabs of Civ 5 because they had to actually defend their empire and care about the AI.
Should it be?
IMO frindship attitude should affect trade offers, route yields, willingness to make alliances, common wars, diplo visibility, willingness to open borders, LIKEHOOD of DoW, but definitely not non agression
Sincerely? It is the only advantage civ5 has over civ6!
- It's so easy to get 4-5 friends early that become alliances as soon as possible. This means no one ever attacks me after the initial ancient era rushes. No real sense of threat and no need to build a defensive army. It doesn't help that AI is clueless about emergencies which are the only instance in which I get declarations of war. This makes the game boring and diplomacy trivial. I can have -40 relations with an ally and they will still smile and renew the alliance.
- Still tech progression is too damn fast. The game turns are: 0 to half=human history, half to end=sci-fi future era.
- Please let units stack between different civs if they have open borders. At least civilian units.
Do you want to settle on that spot? Nope. Your friendly CS has a unit there for 50 turns.
Do you want to improve that tile? Nope. Your ally to whom you gave open borders has a unit there for 50 turns.
Tornados are horrible. Playing on appocalypse mode and they just appears out of the blue heading to a direction which may be false. There's no way to defend yourself against it. Lost two settler brcausr of it. It's BS.
Also... Allies being able to declare on CS you are Suzerain of, and having NOTHING you can do about it, except possibly encircle the CS with your units, is one of the lamest things in the game
Yeah, to me it feels like if an AI breaks something that would give you a CB on them, then that should be a reason to cancel a friendship or even an alliance early. Or perhaps if they declared on one of your suzerain CS, that would be a prime opportunity for one of those "diplo favor or grievances" type of options. So perhaps if they declare war on my CS, the choices should be "30 diplo favor to make peace with them immediately, or stop friendship and gain 50 grievances on them to continue the war" or something to that extent.
Well if you want to look at why you don't see many planes, you have to look at all of the hurdles you have to go through to attain them.
You need a city with a free district slot.
You need good production to make it, the planes, and the buildings in a decent amount of time. AFAIK, there is no policy card to boost the areodomes or its buildings like other military districts.(If not, why not? Easy to tack on in the late game. i believe i even modded this in) There is one very late game policy card to boost planes and CVs.
You need oil/alum to produce it. Competing with all of the other land and naval units. I think they also require upkeep.
The amount of resources and the amount they provide is not a lot. You are just hoping your section of the map has one. From what i could see at a glance, my last game with abundant resources had 2 coal resources on one land mass for 6 civs. There was more oil, but not an astounding amount. Somehow you are suppose to be building oil factories on top of having an up to date army? I can adapt better than the AI can which means they just fall off once i get said resources and they have none.
There are a number of things you could do to improve the situation. Remove troop resource upkeep for most units. You could even remove the resource requirement to make a few units. Make strategic resources more plentiful and provide more in general.(i did the latter in a mod) Make planes not require a district to be made. Add buildings to provide a flat amount of resources. This was in Civ V. You don't have to do all of these, but a few of these would help.
IDK if the AI can even use planes. Do they attack or patrol?
Tech pacing in the mid to late game is a little too fast, which makes these issues worse.
i agree 100% with your post. Small detail, oil for air units was in CIV 5. In civ 6, it's aluminum. but same difference, really !
Still... In the current version of the game, even having to go throuh all that, once you get bombers, the game is won. You can kill ANY civ that might beat you, or that is ahead of you or closing in on a victory type. Oh, you MIGHT need a few carriers and military engineers to make it work, but still...
But your points are very well taken and tought out. I hadn't really tought about how hard it is for AIs to get there. It should be easier to get there.
But ! That's NO excuse for NOT producing anti-air units for defence. You should have to pay by damage to your bombers when attacking city centers. Maybe
city centers defense/walls should have auto air defence ?
Yeah, I can't tell you the last game that I actually used an air force. Granted, usually the game is locked up by that point, but it's definitely quite a few steps to get them going, and by the modern era, resources definitely start to strain you. Never mind the whole game that I virtually use my initial army upgraded through the eras as being way more efficient than hard-building new units later in the game, just makes an air force too much to handle for me, never mind the AI.
Honestly, for me, since i'm not a min/maxer and a chopper, i must admit that if it wasn't for bombers being OP, I probably wouldn't have won close to 30% of my games, because the way I play makes it so that I get to around turn 200/220 before I really get rolling, and in some games, there's already a runaway civ in my game that I probably wouln't be able to catch up. That's especially true when that civ has science superiority on me.
Anyways. It would be nice if the AI played that part at least decently, instead of not at all. Of course you always have the option to not take advantage of it, but... that's so lame ;-(
i think biplanes require oil, but yea later ones need aluminum. i agree AA units should be built more often. Cities fighting back somehow more would be nice.(perhaps buildings proving boosts)
i rarely get 3 planes up before i already have fighters/bombers available. though i almost never need them.
Exact about biplanes.
The catch-22 about the fact that there's no AA built by the AI is that your bombers never get hurt, and so you never have to heal them. most times, I have no aluminim left when I've constructed my bombers, but if I HAD to heal them I'd have to make sure I have some to be able to heal.
This again stretches into balancing, but let us recall that Strategic resources in civ5 worked the same way as fuel resources do in 6. Except, deposits of oil, aluminum, etc, often had 6-8 resources provided. In civ6 they produce 2-3 universally.
I know they aren’t 3-4X more common on the map. We also had recycling plants to bootstrap our late game army.
Some of them are so rare - especially aluminum- it leads to very strict use cases. I will NEVER use a helicopter unit because I would be sacrificing 20% of my air force on a unit when a modern armor can do a better job.
I will extremely rarely use naval ships requiring oil- namely missile cruisers- in favor of nuclear subs, because that oil is also needed for my land units. (Unless I’m blessed to be a petro State.)
For the same reason I will never use oil power plants. (Also coal plants are straight better.)
So what is effectively just a numbers issue leads to severely narrowed strategic considerations.
May I ask you about your game settings (map size and type, ressource setting, difficulty etc.)? I occasionally lack one of the modern ressources, but not in amounts that trading couldn't solve (pre the NFP patch trade as solution was tedious because of having to buy single units, but that annoyance is gone) and the common case is rather my stores (and those of the AIs) hitting the limit.
The AI's obsession with City-States still need some adjustments:
Dido could focus on settling more cities, she could attack Georgia, she could conquer a CS near her, but noap, she decided to cross the whole continent and declare war on Fez. I appreciate the free envoys and favors, but the AI should be able to tell that they won't keep a city, because of loyalty, and be a bit less focused on conquering CS.
I am not complaining about a lack of access to resources. Do not take my comments for a struggle playing the game as it is; instead I am expressing that I think the scale of civ6's worlds have not shrunk enough from civ5 to justify the great reduction in available eg aluminum on the map. Plus, we have the power system now.
Until you get into the future era and can either run aerospace contractors or corporate libertarianism with resource mgmt policy, the simple math is that an entire continent having maybe 2-4 aluminum mines does not really allow for airforces on any scale. You can't even fill a single aerodrome with 1 aluminum mine unless you have boosts to output. Oil is more common but you still have to be careful - and burning it in a power plant is, just like the real world, a very wasteful thing to do.
At this point they should just go back to the drawing board with strategics. Roll it back to Civ 5 and find something that actually works. The system as it is implemented now is just terrible. As many others stated, there are virtually no meaningful decisions to be made, there is too much luck involved, and none of the changes (especially not splitting strategics up into even smaller ressources.. why??) really added more depth. I do like the fact that we now have power as a ressource, that's quite nice.
We have a lot of decisions to make with resources, but I would agree that the balance is off. It's too easy to burn coal for power since there are virtually no units that need it (and a well set up coal plant is so much better than an oil plant), and too much penalty to burning oil for power since oil is too rare and has too many units that require it.
I do think there needs to be better ways to "extract" aluminum in the modern era, even if it doesn't make chemical sense. Iron+coal = railroad is a nice balance and use of those resources in the modern era, although railroads are still more or less useless as it stands. My last game I controlled about half the map and only had 2 or 3 aluminum deposits. It was enough for what I needed, but if I actually had to have a modern army, I would have been in some real trouble.
I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but I still don't understand how can there be "unmet players" in World Congress.
Your diplomats be like:
- Do you see those guys over there? They look new to me, should we make contact with them?
- Nah, let's wait until our scouts discover them!
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