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So what happens if Putin decides he wants Latvia?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by storealex, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    In general as further away something gets from democracy, is how less inclined i am to think of it :(

    But wait a moment: didn't you say that those decisions were actually voted by national parliaments?
    And you now are content with merely stating the Council voted for them?

    Wat aboutism?
     
  2. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    If Latvia is in danger, perhaps Estonia should return the T-55 tank, they borrowed in 2010.
    The situation when Estonia has a tank and Latvia doesn't have any, destabilizing military balance in the region.
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    They could build more tanks if they trade to get access to oil.

    But on the map the only near traders are Russia :\

    (trade by sea/air seems to not be available in this medieval 2014 scen).
     
  4. James Stuart

    James Stuart King

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    I thought that such agreements are de facto active until voted upon by the member-states? So it is, in effect, in place until all 28 states have voted upon it? Or at least, until one of the 28 states votes it down. That is what I got from both the link, and my own knowledge of how the EU works.
     
  5. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    You said they had to be voted on by member-state governments. That's what happened.
    The European Council happens to be precisely the institution where heads of European governments convene and vote.
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    So in your view it is democratic to have EU countries' PMs (or presidents) agree to a line, and there is no need to have the plebs/people or even parliaments in countries vote?

    This is not democratic, man. Most PMs are not even popular. Some are even a minority leader for a while now. A PM cannot decide if a whole country has a trade war with a trade partner. That is just a court of some baron.
     
  7. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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  8. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    So who is moving goalposts now?

    Powers of Council are stipulated in the Treaties.
    The Treaties were adopted by parliamentary votes, or, in some cases, even plebiscite.
    Likewise, PM usually becomes a PM because his party won the elections.

    What's your point?
    That having an executive branch of the government is undemocratic?
    I am beginning to understand why Greece is the effed up place it is - and it is not Germany's fault.
    ...perpetuated by folks who don't have a faintest idea what it is and how it works, as demonstrated above.
     
  9. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    A classic:



    @Yeekim: pls don't troll, you are in Estonia, remember? :p
    I asked you if you think it is democratic to have 20 people or something decide if 500 million people have a trade-war with a major European trading partner, and your reply was that it is fine because 'representative democracy'.
    No, it is not. It is some barons and other oligarchs deciding for stuff the public is against. As noted you have 20 something PMs many of which are minority leaders, in a horrible period, and you let your anti-Russian emotions cloud your sense of any claim about democracy.
     
  10. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    The most notoriously anti-EU-biased member of the forum tells me that emotions cloud my judgement?

    :rotfl:
     
  11. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that we shouldn't help Latvia if it were threatened or invaded.
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Uh... nice wataboutism again, do you have anything to answer about your irrational and undemocratic view, then? :pat:

     
  13. James Stuart

    James Stuart King

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    Of course it is democratic. That is what representative democracy is. You elect representatives, who make decisions on your behalf. If you don't like those decisions, elect different representatives. I despise Australia's current government, and believe they are acting in a manner unbefitting of a democracy, but they are not undemocratic. They just want to be.
     
  14. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton One. And many.

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    Nah, just that we will not be able to stop an invasion if Russia wants it bad enough and that to retake Latvia later on (after Europe has gathered its strength and/or the US deployed sufficient forces) is a costly and dangerous game I think NATO would not play.
     
  15. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Pebbles weren't used in voting, the procedure was clearly undemocratic.
     
  16. James Stuart

    James Stuart King

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    I'm glad you quoted me, or I'd never have noticed how I screwed up that formatting. And I believe that the presidency of the EU should be chosen by lot.
     
  17. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Huh? You mean presidency of the council? That is simply rotating - every country gets 6 months. Right now we have Italian Presidency, for example. Previous one was Greek Presidency.
     
  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Actually, Putin has already said that he considers parts of Latvia as a part of Russia's sphere of influence. Wherever there are Russians, is what concerns Russia.

    There will be no invasion though, just talk, maybe some covert operations.. but Putin will not risk conflict with NATO unless Russians in Latvia are getting slaughtered. which won't happen.

    I can understand why Baltic states citizens are concerned - they used to be a part of Russian domination before. They're likely heard Putin say that large enough Russian populations will be defended by Moscow.. They've seen what's happening to Ukraine. If Russia was right beside me and I had Russians in my country.. I would be concerned too.
     
  19. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Nah, we wouldn't want to concern our dear Russian friends.
    Incessant complaining about "NATO encroachment" and "aggressive maneuvers" is tiring as it is, we wouldn't want to stress you guys out any further by moving that tank.
     
  20. James Stuart

    James Stuart King

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    It's a joke about Greek democracy; Athens chose many positions by lot, rather than through a vote. I am aware of how the Presidency of the Council works.
     

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