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So what's the strategy with Venice?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Bad Wolf, Aug 3, 2015.

  1. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

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    I want to try my first Venice game. But I'm not sure what VC I should go for; Venice seems pretty handicapped for all of them. Science is pretty much out, given their inability to annex and found cities, and the fact that they can only build spaceship parts in the capital. Culture seems tough given that you really only have one good city (ie: Venice) and you can't purchase archaeologists in your puppets. Diplo seems like a natural strategy for Venice, but doesn't that strategy run completely counter to puppeting city-states?

    I suppose domination, counter-intuitively enough, is their natural victory strategy - but it's hard to maintain those uber-profitable trade-routes when you're at war with everybody.

    For those who have beaten the game with Venice (on Emperor-level or higher, preferably), what do you recommend?
     
  2. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Science: You can still purchase Science buildings in your puppeted cities, and if you take Freedom, you can eventually purchase some SS parts in your capital while another one is being built. Between the double Trade Routes and the puppeted CS's, you should be floating in gold.

    Diplomacy: You don't need to puppet a lot of CS's. You can use your GMoVs for their trade missions to get lots more gold.
     
  3. GKShaman

    GKShaman Prince

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    So Mad Djinn did a good Venice Video.

    From it and my thoughts - Diplomacy OR Domination.

    Diplomacy - Buy 2-3 City States conquer a few AI Cities in between and make lots of money.

    Domination - Just conquer every capital strategically - Puppet as many city states as you can. consider keeping a few as trade partners. Conquer strategically. Trade with some AI, Attack other AI. Rinse and Repeat. You don't need a DOF to trade.
     
  4. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    What difficulty level? The amount of money they can generate lends itself to both SV and DV. In my last game on Emperor (as in my last before moving up to Immortal) I won a cake-walk DomV with them. I haven't tried them on Immortal yet, and it will be a while before I do. I suspect one of the big keys to using them well on higher difficulties is recognizing when it's a good idea to buy a CS, when to save your GM and when to cash in the GM for money and influence.
     
  5. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    I think i know what video he's talking about and i also think that maddjinn did that in Deity difficulty.
     
  6. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    Venice is great at all of them. A massive capital and lots of gold. A large army and navy with advanced units? Decent production to get multiple GWA wonders whilst buying CSs to give you World Religion? Hermitage with one Opera House and Visitor Centre with one Hotel? Take your pick!
     
  7. lunfa_reo

    lunfa_reo Warlord

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    I just pulled off a Culture Victory playing as Venice. My strategy was focusing on production early, getting key early wonders (bonus to build them from religions and great engineer generation) and then shift to culture, while exploiting the great trade routes to influence the other civs apart from gaining a lot of gold which in turn was used to bribe city states into becoming (and staying) allied with me.

    Once I achieved this I leveraged the World Congress to impose my tourism the other civs: first the World Fair, next the World Religion and finally the World Ideology. Coupled with getting a couple extra tourism related late game wonders this setup generated a snowballing effect ultimately getting me the culture victory by the time I finished researching The Internet.

    It was really fun. Next game as Venice I'll try a Diplo victory.
     
  8. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

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    Venice doesn't have a handicap. It's a 'hint'.

    Civ 5 doesn't like that you can found cities. Science penalty, cultural penalty, problems with happy faces, national wonders, Tradition, the strongest policy is for 'small' empire ...

    Venice forces you to play how you should play Civ 5. Start small (within 'tradition' limits), but build high quality cities or just one super city (your capitol). If you want more, use pointy sticks.
     
  9. InDubioProReo

    InDubioProReo Warlord

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    I won a super easy CV with Venice awhile ago. Because the capital is so strong most of the time, you have insane production to get most needed wonders (and most of the time even more) I remember building 16 wonders that game, in Deity.

    Run cargo ships to your capital, grow grow and grow, make money, buy city states, and pretty much do whatever you want. They are really versatile.
     
  10. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    2 tips for playing Venice regardless of the victory condition:

    1.) I usually buy 2 and only 2 City states. You want 2 water-based trade routes feeding the capital as early as possible and pretty much throughout the game. Both occur very early, you get one free MoV with optics and the other by filling the market which is built/bought immediately after discovering currency. So early, in fact, that Venice is often the civ that I achieve 3 cities earliest with. Also, there's usually two city states that are close enough to Venice that you don't need to guard the routes, which is otherwise frustrating early-game as fewer cities + more fogbust units = supply nightmares. It's nice when you can take one with lots of advanced units, but location is a far higher priority than units.
    2.) Venice is the only civ that I spend time moving around great works. Between the puppet penalty and the fact that players usually spend most of their focus on the capital, the puppeted CS's expand their borders far too slow, and I used to catch myself having puppets running 5 or 6 unimproved tundra tiles. While you can never control which tiles they work, you can control the options for which tiles they work. Plus, while Venice doesn't have any culture bonus, they usually get to the capital's 4th and 5th rings far earlier than other civs, even the ones that have culture bonuses.

    As far as victory condition bias, I don't think Venice leans too far in any direction. I find culture to be the most natural victory condition for Venice on immortal difficullty and lower, but not for deity (Deity CV games, in my experience, involve or even necessitate conquering the culture leader's capital, which is quite hard for Venice while otherwise preparing for a culture victory.) Peaceful space or diplo works pretty well with Venice across all difficulty levels; aggressive space or diplo isn't well suited to Venice.

    Domination with Venice is... different. I wouldn't say easier or harder, just different. The fundamental tactic I use is Trad, partial commerce, ratty, and autocracy, then combine mercantilism/Big Ben/mobilization (2 SPs and one wonder all of which decrease unit price) combined with the incredible economy Venice can muster to be able to buy 2 or 3 units every turn. Good news is that it's one of the most devastating methods of military production in the game, bad news is that it requires a late start for aggression, often too late for deity level. But then there's water maps

    Water maps are vital to Venice. IMO, Venice is THE MOST coastal oriented civ in the game - more than England, more than Polynesia, more than the Ottomans. Their trademark feature is their trade routes, and these are twice as effective with cargo ships as they are with caravans (either internal or external.) Additionally, and many players , great players, who play only pangaea maps completely miss this: the great galeass is an awesome UU. Not quite as good as Keshik/Camel Archer, but the next best one in the game (maybe impi ties it.) The normal galeass is an incredible unit for water map doms, essentially a coastal catapult with twice the moves, doesn't need to set up, and damages units as effectively as it does cities. Having that unit buffed with it's UU stats is insane. If all civs can be reached by coast tiles (which happens about half the time on arch maps), this pre-renaissance unit can be a game-ender.
     
  11. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    I would agree that you can go after any victory condition as Venice successfully.
    However, in my experience, they are the slowest time (in terms of turn number) to peaceful victory.

    (Darn puppets producing GMOV in mid game reducing number of Great Scientists born compared to playing anybody else; science being the main thing that determines how quick any of Spaceship, Diplomatic, or Culture is)
     
  12. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Agree that they often have the latest turn-to-victory. In my experience however, they are often the fastest victory in terms of time spent playing; only have to micromanage one city and since your focus is almost exclusively on that city, you can get away with doing it about a third as often.

    Also, just about everything noted so far in this thread applies only to single-player games. Don't even try Venice in multi-player. In fact, most gaming rings that require random civ selection allow people who draw Venice to re-roll.
     
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    When I first tried Venice (Deity), I did a couple things wrong.
    1. Liberty is tempting for the extra MoV, but Tradition is much, much better for Venice.
    2. I only ever used MoV to steal CS -- but that actually is counter productive after the first two or three. CS allies are much, much better than CS puppets.
    As others have pointed out, you want the two or three CS early and within trade route range. Feeding the cap is key, and also as pointed out, Venice is very map dependent -- but the only real criteria is two CS within trade route range.

    With that one caveat, I feel like Venice is the easiest civ to play. They are only civ that I feel confident would almost always be a win for me at Deity. (I very much struggle with Deity.) Between the MoVs (mostly for money) and extra trade routes for Freedom Treaty Organization DiploV is very straightforward. Venice is also the only civ where I had enough gold to purchase 3+ SS parts for easy SV.

    That said, I really do not enjoy playing them. Terribly boring. I have tried hard to understand the appeal, and I just do not get it. I like units with xp. I like my expos building units and supporting my war effort. I like to be competitive when it comes to Worlds Fair and International Games. I like my SV to end with expos building SS parts.
     
  14. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

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    Thats tricky, I agree.

    Tho, puppets will switch to Worlds Fair if they have no other commerce oriented building to build. You have to rush buy stuff that AI wants to build and them AI will switch to WF/IG focus.

    Costs lots of money, but works.

    Side note: puppets will also switch to science focus (not default commerce), but Im not sure when, under which condition.
     
  15. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    I've never seen a puppet switch from commerce focus to science focus.
    However, if the puppet is already running all merchant slots + all tiles producing at least 1 gold, it will run some scientists. (Just not enough for a puppet to have a snowball's chance of producing a Great Scientist)
     
  16. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

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    Venice or other civs?
     
  17. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    I'm on my way to the Renaissance in a brutal Venice conquest game. Wandered at start and found Mt Fuji, grabbed God-King on turn 14 (Deity) then switched to food tiles, stole two workers at once from Ashurbanipal, got Great Library (!), bribed neighbouring Alexander to send his carpet of units to bother Wu, milked a bit of XP from Genoa and then bought them and their army out. Three spears, three CB and two archers have now killed everyone on my continent, Wu had Stonehenge and Ashur SoZ; now I need to Navigate to my next victim.
     
  18. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    As any of:

    Playing Venice and GMOV buy city state

    Playing non-Venice and capturing a city and puppeting

    Player Venice and capturing a city and puppeting.
     
  19. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Changes in puppets adjust to your whole empire's demands. So if your budget is low on gold for example, puppets would specialize theirs citizens to great merchants but usually its for great merchants so that you can purchase their courthouses already.
     
  20. MarauderCH

    MarauderCH Warlord

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    Venice is for culture or domination victories. You will reach a point where you will never have to buy buildings again in Venice. This will allow you to focus on Wonders, units, and archeologists. Venice will be a powerhouse because of the internal trade routes bringing food back to Venice and making it huge. Venice is a very powerful civ.
     

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