Socialism [includes long version of poll answer]

[Erik Mesoy]

OPTION ONE: Socialism is the system that was used in Soviet Russia, and was part of the cause of its collapse. Socialism is similar to communism. Both are inevitably harmful and unworkable. West European countries are not Socialist, they are Social Democratic.

OPTION TWO: Socialism is the currently functioning system used in European countries. Its main feature is higher taxes and a government expenditure that covers what would otherwise be certain private expenditures. Soviet Russia was not Socialist, it was Communist.

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Background: Because the term "socialism" is thrown around so much, I wondered for a while on using the terms "US Model, European Model, Soviet Model". I have now decided to see whether there's a consensus on the meaning of "socialism". Another frequent argument is when the US political right refers to the US political left as "socialist", while the Europeans then object to being minimized on the spectrum and opine that the US has two political parties - "capitalists in favor of gay marriage" and "capitalists against gay marriage". Something like this. (not to scale)

Spoiler :

This is a binary poll.
There is no option for "I'm a post-modernist who wants to complain about binary polls being neo-imperialist" or the like, nor are there giant radioactive monkeys. You may refuse to vote. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to vote.

So. What's socialism?

 

[warpus]

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community

Thank you wiki
Important parts bolded

 

[Riffraff]

voted option A.

European countries exclusively run mixed economies.

 

[Fifty]

I'm not sure if the USSR was really socialist at all. I mean yeah, they were "socialist" and "communist" in name, but if something's name is the criterion by which we decide that it actually is that thing, then I guess we should abandon democracy altogether, since N. Korea, the Congo, etc. are not nice places.

I don't think Europe is currently socialist strictly speaking. They probably have socialist elements though.

 

[Gelion]

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community

Thank you wiki
Important parts bolded

Agreed. Thus no vote taken.

 

[Ecofarm]

Socialism does not outlaw religion; communism does. Russia was communist.
Socialism does not demand totalitarianism; communism does. Again, Russia was communist.
Socialism does not imply a dictator/oligarchy; communism does...
Socialism does not deny a free press; communism does...
Socialism does not imply a loss of civil rights; communism does...
Socialism does not demand the absence of capitalism; communism does...

The USSR calling itself socialist is like N. Korea calling itself a republic.

 

[Phlegmak]

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community

Thank you wiki
Important parts bolded

If that's socialism, then I'll have to abstain. The USSR wasn't control by community, but rather control by government. Europe doesn't use control by community either. Based on the definition above, socialism doesn't exist.

 

[Gelion]

If that's socialism, then I'll have to abstain. The USSR wasn't control by community, but rather control by government. Europe doesn't use control by community either. Based on the definition above, socialism doesn't exist.

Few things exist in their vocabulary definition form, communism is one more example.

 

[Ecofarm]

Can you have control by community any way other than through government? It's not like the entire community can meet at the capital and do a raise-of-hands to determine the will of the people. I think, in the above definition, it is safe to substitute community with government. The EU community/government controls a very high proportion of national wealth, GNP, and property compared to the US. Control not just in the form of ownership, but through regulations in far excess of those in the US.

Socialism, by definition, is a mixed economy. Some EU countries have a socialist majority controlling government.

I voted 2.

 

[JohnRM]

I think that there is a problem with this poll. Europe is not entirely socialist. The Soviet Union was almost entirely Communist. I think that a prime example of socialism would lay somewhere in the middle. I think that Europe has its own spectrum, starting with the United Kingdom on the right, with the freest economy, ending on the left with Sweden.

 

[amadeus]

It's the first step in destroying the individual liberties that are the cornerstone of our nation.

 

[warpus]

It's the first step in destroying the individual liberties that are the cornerstone of our nation.

I don't think rhetoric will help this thread much.

 

[amadeus]

I don't think rhetoric will help this thread much.

It's the truth.

 

[C~G]

It's the first step in destroying the individual liberties that are the cornerstone of our nation.

Socialist would say it's the first step to safe those liberties.

 

[drachasor]

Socialism does not outlaw religion; communism does. Russia was communist.
Socialism does not demand totalitarianism; communism does. Again, Russia was communist.
Socialism does not imply a dictator/oligarchy; communism does...
Socialism does not deny a free press; communism does...
Socialism does not imply a loss of civil rights; communism does...
Socialism does not demand the absence of capitalism; communism does...

The USSR calling itself socialist is like N. Korea calling itself a republic.

Communism doesn't do those things either, really. Of course, a real communism can't exist.

Soviet Russia was more about totalitarianism than ANYTHING else. The desire to control people and power explains everything above much better than a desire to implement communism, for instance.

-Drachasor

 

[.Shane.]

I find it pretty funny how people so easily confuse socialism and communism. Sure there's some overlap in terms of having the state control things.

But there is a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. Socialism respects democracy. It is not part of socialist doctrine to destroy democracy, capitalism, and/or religion.

I really think people like to use it as a bogeyman. The socialist model is good for some industries/services and bad for others. If my house is burning, I'm glad that when I call the fire department they don't ask me for my credit card number. Conversely, I'm not interested in driving a Trabant.

The balance lies in which industries are best run by the state. That's where the real disagreement should be. But, because it makes it easier to tap into Americans fear, we like to make "socialism" a strawman bogeyman so we can avoid discussing real issues.

 

[Japanrocks12]

poll option 2

 

[aneeshm]

I'd say it was closest to India, c. 1947 to 1991.

 

[Japanrocks12]

I'd say it was closest to India, c. 1947 to 1991.

could you care to elaborate a little - like give us examples of how it was similar to socialism etc

 

[aneeshm]

Democratic state, human rights, courts, elections, the works.

But a huge state control of the economy. Not directly, but in setting production limits, special incentives, and all that.