Society has Liberal but not Conservative?

[ColdAdam010]

Alright, I finally made an account to post my ideas fo Civ up becuase i'm getting fed up with liberal based government in the game.

So i complied a bunch of my thoughts that would improve it, here they go..

1. If there's Society liberal where's conservative? really, Nationalism is to extreme with stopping trade with foreign countries and whatnot.

2. When starting late games i usally go towards a republic free market constitutional country and all the other Civs go into either Unions or Empires and hate the hell out of me for being against the Enviroment witch is a -4 releation and -2 for not supporting the working class. The thing is it's never different is this a AI glitch or can this be improved?

3. Why does the civic Republic have +3 angry faces for "Large cities are oppresive"? Little extreme and not true. Only reason a large city can be oppresive is from gerymandering. Which you could add in, doesn't bother me as long if you can stop it and get rid of the angry faces.

4. When playing with other Civ's late game they tend to really really suck at war -- e.g. the game im in right now im fighting 2 decent nations with higher techs then me but they contain no fightable armies... like they dont build tanks even though they can.. they have nukes and somewhat of a navy but really? I don't see any signs of them invading my shores only dropping Intermediate ballistic missiles.

5. Is there a way to cap "The world considers you a villian" i got 15 angry faces in a current game due to my number 2 complaint.
So can you make an option to shut this off or limit it? It's really killing my economy and in realality their the evil empires.

6. You should be able to build war generals/commanders what ever you want to call them and not have thier nationality be hidden, as i play through the game i never build any of these units but still end up with like 10 of em because the dummy AI wont stop sending them towards my workers and of course i go and have to stop it.

7. The democracy civic should be split into 2, direct democracy - for small civ's and indirect democracy for large civ's. Always wonder why that was never split.

That's all for now if i have any other criticism for the game i'll let the community know.

 

[Justin Cray]

The opposite of a liberal society is a closed society, this is represented with Monarchy, Communism, Fascism, Feudal...

I could go on here but I think you catch my drift.

Liberal in this case doesn't indicate how a society leans politically but how many rights citizens enjoy.

 

[ComradeKristov]

1. Liberal is in terms of the freedoms the citizens enjoy in a society.
2. The anger you face is because the AI now supports the civics they choose and dislikes countries running other civics, just like real life.
3. You can get rid of the angry faces by making your own module and changing the civics. The main reason you have angry faces associated with republics and democracies is because the people have a voice and they usually don't like the way the gov't is run. Everyone complains about something when they have a chance!
4. Are you playing with ruthless AI? Try it and you will regret thinking the AI is weak!
5. Yes, again you can create your own module and change anything you don't like.
6. Go here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=374589 and scroll down a bit I posted a module to alter this.
7. It is split up Democracy represents a direct democracy and republic represents a indirect or republican style democracy if you want to call it that.

 

[climat]

Please give more details of your idea about "Conservative".
If you have specific idea about what benefit/penalty it brings, we can make one!

 

[Cyrusfan]

ColdAdam010, it'd be really difficult to get into this without huge political arguments around here. I recommend you do some research as to what "Liberal" meant over a century and a half ago (note when the civic appears on the tech tree) rather than what it has meant in recent years, and compare that to its effects. "Classic Liberalism" might help your google search.

 

[AndarielHalo]

I actually agree with this, a bit.

The 1800s had a vast uprising of liberalism, yet of conservatism, I can't really pinpoint any major conservative "flourishing" that could really count as a national ideal beyond that which arose in England and France, and which both, as mentioned by someone else, tie very deeply into the ideals of monarchy.


But my knowledge on classical conservatism is very limited. I don't even know how this could be applied as a fully functional civic in the game

@Justin Cray: Communism is actually the extreme form of liberalism and is supposed to be an open society. The key is obviously in the "supposed" to, as I don't think there's ever been a true Communist society in the true sense of the word beyond the Owenist experiment of New Harmony

 

[Afforess]

"Liberal" here means classical Liberalism, the ideals on which America was founded on. Since then, the Media and Time have warped the meaning of the word.

 

[ColdAdam010]

Ok to help clarify Conservative i'll explain.
The liberal civic is fine there is nothing wrong with it nor can it be changed from changing political views. The reason why is that liberal core beliefs haven't changed and that what's represented with the liberal civic, such as anti-war and belief in complete freedom from restricition. e.g. the bill of rights in the U.S. Constitution.
Now Conservative is somewhat the opposite of it but still has many of the same values like freedom of speech. Like a conservative favors his/her gun rights and supports war because he/she knows it has to be done. A great example of this is our war with the middle east. There is no way in hell we are going to be able to negotiate with Iran or Russia simply because they don't like us for many many reasons thus war is acceptable. A liberal see's it differntly, they believe is we are nice to them enough they'll return the favor. I can see why they think this and is totally acceptable to me in certain cases it will work.

So here's a list of changes from the liberal civic that would make a conservative one.

No increased war wearness
No anger from barracks - in research i've done, you could add a happy face for "Protecting the country we love".
A tendency to avoid change - in the game you could represent this as increased wait time between civic changes from conservative.
The U.N would give angry faces
As i do more research i'll add more in

Here's a scale to help see what i mean
Communism/Socialism ----- Liberal --- Moderat ---- Conservative ---- Nationalist/Nazi
and for the fellow said that there was no wave of conservative flourishing, there was. It dawned during the beging off WW2. The german nation united, then hitler decided to screw over the jews and he completed went off course into the extreme of extreme's of conservative which is nationalist just as russia when crazy liber into communist.
To point out the diference between Communist and Socialst is the goverment being run e.g. Communism is under a dictator while socialism is under a democracy. Same with Nazi being under a dictator and nationalist being under a republic.

Also a republic isn't a indirect democracy but does use a indirect democracy voting system for elections.
An example of a really good republic is our constitution.
And if the Democracy really is an example of Direct Democracy you should add very high national government costs because in a direct, every citizen votes for every issue. So let's say lower taxes in a 300 million pop country, everyone must go and vote, that takes alot of time and no country in the world today runs that kind of government.

Democracies that you see today are Indirect ones usally with a socalist economy with liberal society, there not all socalist liberal btw.

Also the republic and democray civics have angry faces for not be represented, i can see where this come froms in history. This is due to gerymandering which is where politicians control voting districts so that the distric only goes one way. It's hard to explain but if you look it up you'll understand what im talking about. This of course can be banned and controlled reducing and even eliminating the "large cities are oppresive" feeling citizens get.

Also as a footnote. I know im mixing governments a little bit with society but they go hand in hand. You're never going to see a liberal republic becuase core beliefs of liberalism will go towords democracies. While conservative would be toword a republic. It doesn't have to be that way like in the U.S. where large segments of the populace are liberal living under a republic. But thats why there is a democrat party and of course the republican, and there is a third which is a workers one. In the U.S. it's currently the tea party if you look into any free election goverment system you'll see these parties dominating.

 

[Afforess]

Since you seemed to ignore me - let me make it clear:

The Liberalism Civic does NOT mean Modern Day Liberalism. Classical Liberalism is this:

Classical liberalism was a political ideology that developed in the nineteenth century in Western Europe, and the Americas. It was committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets. It drew on the economics of Adam Smith, a psychological understanding of individual liberty, natural law and utilitarianism, and a belief in progress. Classical liberals established political parties that were called "Liberal", although in the United States classical liberalism came to dominate both existing major political parties. Although classical liberalism built on ideas that had already developed by the end of the 18th century, it advocated a specific kind of society, government and public policy required as a result of the Industrial Revolution and urbanization.

It has much more in common with American Conservatism than American Liberalism.

 

[vincentz]

lol... civics=political views=personal opinions=.....

@coldAdam010

If you read a couple of threads about changes in civics in this and RoM forum, you would see that it is impossible to implement every persons view on the matter. Impossible....

What is possible however is that you open up this file (remember to backup first):
...Civilization4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Rise of Mankind\Assets\Modules\Afforess\Better RoM\Balanced_CIV4CivicInfos.xml

and make the changes/additions you like.
When you are finished and have playtested it (and civics are some of the most difficult to balance) you can post it in this forum as ColdAdam's Conservatism or something like that.
If people like it and it makes sense, then maybe it will be implemented into AND or maybe even ROM

 

[VladDaImpaler]

Since you seemed to ignore me - let me make it clear:

The Liberalism Civic does NOT mean Modern Day Liberalism. Classical Liberalism is this:

It has much more in common with American Conservatism than American Liberalism.

This ticks me off the most. I can't stand people who don't know what liberal, or liberalism means. Of course, the media we got here won't educate anyone, but games like this can!

I highly suggest reading the Civilopedia's about each civic and learning what they mean and such, that's what I enjoy doing.

Also, "Communism/Socialism ----- Liberal --- Moderate ---- Conservative ---- Nationalist/Nazi"
=Nationalist is NOT Nazi, NO NO NO NO NO!! Nazi would be along the lines of Fascism, which although is deemed far right, is socialist too (weird ain't it!? That's why the Left-Right spectrum is stupid and a simple distraction for the masses)
Although, it is somewhat close being that the people unite under one entity, the state.

Liberal emphasis Individualism which I'm sorry to be the first to tell you ColdAdam010 you are as am I. Liberalism doesn't want to limit your ability to have guns, infact they are a necessity. There's a saying somewhere that goes like, "Abraham Lincoln set us free, Smith & Wesson made us equal"

America was founded on Liberal ideals (IE: see the entire constitution except slavery then prohibition [The first amendment to EVER LIMIT our freedoms, f-in puritans!!!)

Also, is there any political talk allowed on these forums? I'd really like to talk about why guns in the hands of the people are awesome, and I don't even own any, nor have ever shot a real one before. Also, I'm liberal (see wiki above) and am Anti-war... During the wartime excessive power is given to the executive branch and the people's freedoms are threatened, especially when constantly in wars\"conflicts".

 

[Afforess]

This ticks me off the most. I can't stand people who don't know what liberal, or liberalism means. Of course, the media we got here won't educate anyone, but games like this can!

Amen!

Also, is there any political talk allowed on these forums? I'd really like to talk about why guns in the hands of the people are awesome, and I don't even own any, nor have ever shot a real one before. Also, I'm liberal (see wiki above) and am Anti-war... During the wartime excessive power is given to the executive branch and the people's freedoms are threatened, especially when constantly in wars\"conflicts".

Some. Actually, a lot, as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

Anyway, the Supreme Court has ruled that the 2nd Amendment grants the right to gun ownership. It's a constitutional right. Given it's popularity, it's a right I doubt will be changed anytime soon.

As for whether guns SHOULD be allowed, I'm in favor of allowing guns. I don't own any, nor am trained; but prohibiting objects because of possible abuses is exactly the wrong solution. Education, and Crime-Prevention are the real long term solutions, not banning weaponds. Would you ban cars too? They kill more people every year than guns do.

As for war - it needs to be justified. The Iraq war served as a scapegoat for the public outcry with 9/11, which is not a legitimate excuse.

 

[mechaerik]

Also, "Communism/Socialism ----- Liberal --- Moderate ---- Conservative ---- Nationalist/Nazi"
=Nationalist is NOT Nazi, NO NO NO NO NO!! Nazi would be along the lines of Fascism, which although is deemed far right, is socialist too (weird ain't it!? That's why the Left-Right spectrum is stupid and a simple distraction for the masses)
Although, it is somewhat close being that the people unite under one entity, the state.

The economics of Nazism (and fascism in general) are... complicated to say the least. An unusual mixture of philosophies. This greatly underlines the problems of having a one axis scale in politics (even with two axes you still can get some unusual results).

Also, is there any political talk allowed on these forums? I'd really like to talk about why guns in the hands of the people are awesome, and I don't even own any, nor have ever shot a real one before. Also, I'm liberal (see wiki above) and am Anti-war... During the wartime excessive power is given to the executive branch and the people's freedoms are threatened, especially when constantly in wars\"conflicts".

In the regular forums, politics is discouraged, likely because of the inevitable flame wars that erupt. Try Off Topic, everything becomes a political discussion there.

 

[dudeSDCA]

Amen!
As for war - it needs to be justified. The Iraq war served as a scapegoat for the public outcry with 9/11, which is not a legitimate excuse.

Like a conservative favors his/her gun rights and supports war because he/she knows it has to be done. A great example of this is our war with the middle east. There is no way in hell we are going to be able to negotiate with Iran or Russia simply because they don't like us for many many reasons thus war is acceptable. A liberal see's it differently, they believe is we are nice to them enough they'll return the favor. I can see why they think this and is totally acceptable to me in certain cases it will work.

Seems like President Bush (a conservative) was VERY nice to North Korea (in providing millions of dollars in aid), and they "returned the favor" by using that money to develop nuclear programs. Clinton (a liberal) was persecuted for sending in troops and CIA operatives into Kosovo because he "knew it needed to be done". As I recall, 3/4ths of the Senate voted to authorize the Iraq war in 2002. Diplomacy and war aren't liberal or conservative in-and-of-themselves -- different political situations result in different political alliances that don't always contend themselves to a conservative-liberal mentality.

Heck, Look at Howard Dean (chair of the Democratic Committee) who just came out in FAVOR of moving the mosque in NYC, despite that goes against Classic Liberalism.

So this is why I liked the IDEOLOGIES option in the civics -- I could be Classically Liberal, but still choose an Ideology that aligns more with what ColdAdam is discussing (conservative, or socialist, or nationalist, etc.--I forget what the options were)

 

[Drake L. Dragon]

"Liberal" here means classical Liberalism, the ideals on which America was founded on. Since then, the Media and Time have warped the meaning of the word.

One of the reasons that I do play A New Dawn is because you, the modder, actually get things right in terms of the civics and the political spectrum. However, I would argue that the United States was also Nationalist when it started off as well. Remember when President Thomas Jefferson embargoed the world? I also don't agree that, with the new economics system, Coinage would be had to cause inflation. Coinage, after all, largely halts production of currency to what is necessary, because gold actually has value as opposed to a paper currency. Technically, a country can practice Coinage and still have a free market economy.

In general, there are things to nitpick, but A New Dawn, with Rise of Mankind, at least involves itself in the political complexities of the real world.

 

[ColdAdam010]

Afforess, thanks for the clarification on classical liberalism but i do have a question on it. where in it does it state that the populace gets angry from war, and if so why?

Also and ideologies civic sounds nice since it is apart of modern society and if civ is replicating the world it seems fit to be added. It would also help define what i what my country to be when im playing the game. Like dudeSDCA said.

Also when more power shifts over to the executive branch i dont see how it can threaten the populace, Speaking from american terms here our Nations military isnt allowed what so ever to do anything within the borders of the country exept mass troops, recieve troops and maintain any military presence within the defiened area of occupancy (also know as barracks and what not). and if you think they can they cant thats the national guard which is controlled by states.

And in my view at least when the nazi party was full swing with hitler the german state was facist. so i swapped facist with nazi on my scale i typed, should of kept it completely gov. based
planned for communism, facist for nazi, sorry about that so heres a better version
x _________________________ ---Facist
Communism --- --- Socialism --- --- Capitalism
(Modern Day Liberal) (Classical Liberal)
Democracy---____________---Republic ---Nationalist

If you could add anouther axis i could put facist imaging it jutting off between socialism and capitalism or you could think of it as the complete opposite of communism but not capitalism. Wow thats hard to explain...
Also with Democracy, Republic, Nationalist
Anyways i'm trying to show that in this very poor picture where gov. lie between economic policies... it sorta shows it if you use some imagination.

I'm also im not the greatest modder so my chance of being succesful trying to add conservatism will most likey 99% fail.

 

[dudeSDCA]

ColdAdam:
Check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_forms_of_government

As you can see, mankind has has experimented with 30+ different forms of governance. Like you said, some of the anchors we use in mankind are actually proxies for different governments.

So on one anchor you could talk about who rules:
Autocracy - rule by one
Oligarchy - rule by minority
Democracy - rule by majority
Republic - rule by law
Anarchism - rule by no one/all

Another anchor could be who owns the means of production:
State Socialism: the state owns the means of production
National Socialism: the workers own the means of production
Classic Socialism: Society owns the means of production
Libertarian Socialism: small groups own their own means of production
Capitalism: businesses own the means of production
Corporatism: corporations own the means of production

You could through in another anchor on values (ownership society, environmental society, economic equality, etc.).

You could get really specific so if you choose Oligarchy (rule by few) for the first one, you get access to: Aristocracy, Corporatism, Diarchy, Dictatorship, Monarchy, etc. Or if you choose Democracy you get access to: Direct Democracy, Representative Democracy, Parliamentarian Democracy, Presidential.

Personally, I think this is where Civ should go in general (and I think this is what Killtech was thinking along the lines of as well). Of course, the amount of coding it would probably take is pretty daunting...

 

[Arakhor]

The last thing I want to see is specific American civics. I'm fine with the generalised civics as a whole, but the fact that a presidential democracy is "better" than a Parliamentary one is a bit galling.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And just to be difficult in Australia these days liberal and conservative mean the same thing.

 

[mechaerik]

Another anchor could be who owns the means of production:
State Socialism: the state owns the means of production
National Socialism: the workers own the means of production
Classic Socialism: Society owns the means of production
Libertarian Socialism: small groups own their own means of production
Capitalism: businesses own the means of production
Corporatism: corporations own the means of production

Im pretty sure National Socialism is something else entirely.