Solution to the crisis in Iraq

[insurgent]

Hey, I just got this idea.

When we liberated Iraq (as an inhabitant of a contributing nation, I can actually say "we" - and I'm proud of that), the French and Germans opposed it together with Russia and several tyrannies including Syria and China in the Security Council. They blocked a UN decision for months and won time for Saddam to hide away his weaponry (funny, since, according to Khidhir Hamza, West Germany, France, and Russia were the main supporters and suppliers of weaponry and technology to Saddam during the Cold War... must be a coincidence).
Well, anyway - the French have pledged veto after veto against resolutions to decide the future of Iraq in the UN forum. Fair enough - vetoing is a right of theirs, just as it was their right to veto Gaddhafi's compensation for the victims of the Lockerbie bombing. You must say - the French do really know how to create credibility in their foreign politics. So, having won millions of French voters stalling, projecting himself as the oracle of all that is good, de Gaull... ehm... Chirac cast his eye on the rebuilding of Iraq - in which he has great interest (just think how good he will look, if the Americans fail...).
So, with no political will in Germany or France to send any personnel whatsoever to Iraq, the two countries have fought a diplomatic crusade to make the US share control over its troops. With pledges of minimal economic help, the two countries set out to make plans for a "democratic Iraq" under UN control. The plan is basically:
Everyone else do all the work, everyone else pays for the work, but the decisions are to be decided in Brussels (with occasional trips to Strasbourg).

Well, why don't we call their bluff? We tell the UN: "You want control? Here you go - we'll be out of here in, say, a month or so. We forfeit all rights to control the rebuilding once we're gone.
We expect the French and Germans to supply the peacekeepers and carry their masterplan out with the lives of their own soldiers and the money of the taxpayers."

How's that plan?
Oh wait, that's right - the French and Germans would never supply troops. The Russians are of course too busy with their "war against "terrorism"" in Chechnya. They'd let it all succumb to civil war and afterwards blame everybody else (read "the US"). And then the whole war will have been pointless - WMD capabilities in hands of new tyrants, jihadists, or whatever, and the Iraqi population oppressed once again.

So, I guess, we'll just have to let our troops be killed on the altar of German and French imperialis... err... altruism...

 

[Phantom Lord]

Blood for oil, so they say.

 

[Neomega]

What crisis? There is no crisis, traitor. Support your troops. Iraq is going fine. Iraq has been liberated. Support your president. I don't want to hear things aren't going well, that's unpatriotic. We can do it alone, the U.N. is useless. Everything is going ot go fine. The Iraqis have welcomed us with flowers and cheering. All weapons of mass destruction have been found. America isn't in it for the oil, France and Germany are in it for the oil. I don't think America even knows Iraq has oil. This isn't a war against Muslims, it's a crusade against Idol worshipers.......

The war has just begun, some nations were smart enough not to stick their nose in the middle east in the first place. There is no solution. We're screwed.

 

[jack merchant]

So that's the new line eh ? The WMD not being found is France and Germany's fault ?



As to the rest of insurgent's post, it's a one-sided perspective that's only slightly less ugly than a troll so I won't dignify it with further comment.

 

[insurgent]

Well, yeah... I was a bit enraged by the comments by someone else when I wrote it... I was rambling...

But yes, of course it was a one-sided perspective. So are most posts on the subject. Of course it's not France and Germany's fault that WMDs have not been found - but they certainly did their part. Evidence that weapons exist has been found in abundance, but Iraq is a big country. It took years for the inspectors to find the WMD after 1991 - it's not that hard to hide.
Anyway, I think the French, Germans, and Russians are hypocritical in this matter.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by jack merchant
So that's the new line eh ? The WMD not being found is France and Germany's fault ?

Actually, the best reason I've yet seen advanced for the lack of WMDs were that they had indeed been found, but that they were of Franco-German manufacture, and that Bush decided not to make the discovery public not to humiliate Chirac and Schroeder

 

[Ossric]

i guess you don't know a lot of the whole situation, alas the rambling.

 

[Akbar]

Originally posted by insurgent
Anyway, I think the French, Germans, and Russians are hypocritical in this matter.

Apparantly, they are not the only ones.

 

[Phantom Lord]

"We'll let our friends be the peacekeepers and the great country called America will be the pacemakers."

George W. Bush, Houston, Texas, Sept. 6, 2000

 

[test_specimen]

Why should Europe pay for a thing it didn't want in the first place? Germany and France just told their "friend", the US, that they thought going to war in Iraq is a bad idea, and now they are kind enough not to remind the US that "we're right, you're wrong". The US assumed responsibility for the Iraqi people, so they have to cope with the problem. They didn't want the UN involved in the first place, so why involve them now? I think it's completely wrong of the EU, to offer the US to get involved in the situation. I'm against paying a single cent for what the US did in Iraq. But on the other hand, we would probably pay it as aid to another country anyway, so nevermind. I alway wonder what the US patriots think of the solution that was found in Iran, where weapons inspectors are used again - I guess I know what Bush had in mind for this country.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by jack merchant
So that's the new line eh ? The WMD not being found is France and Germany's fault ?

The solution to the "crisis"? Blame it on France! Problem solved!

Frankly, while I am not entirely certain of the motives of France and Germany, IMO they made exactly the right decisions all the way through and are still making them now. If the US wants world help, then the world should take over the responsibility. This does look a lot like the US going in, making a mess, and then getting someone else to clean it up, maybe, but if they want world help, they should have to make this concession, not whinge about France being against them all the way.

Make no mistake, France is not, and never was, the problem here.

 

[Ossric]

the reason why so little funds are gathered has to do with 2 reasons imo: transparency & safety.

If the security can't be garanteed in Iraq, why donate funds if the construction sites will most likely be destroyed by renegate soldiers. Every investment has to have some garantees, that's just commen economic sense.

Transparency problems: As long as it remains unclear where the money is used for & by who, there won't be a significant willingness to pay. We're not going to donate money if it only ends up in the hands of American companies, instead of the Iraqi people. I think that even in the US, they're starting to wonder where there tax-dollars go to. If an US company gets money to built a factory in Mosul (for example) & sub-contracts the assignments to some Iraqi's at a far lower price, what happens to the rest of the money? US-tax money des not have to be paid to make the profit for US firms in Iraq, so why should we Europeans pay for it?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by insurgent
And then the whole war will have been pointless - WMD capabilities in hands of new tyrants, jihadists, or whatever, and the Iraqi population oppressed once again.

The war was for nothing.
1. No WMDs were found.

2. Saddam Hussein was not captured or killed.

3. There wont be enough oil production to fund reconstruction after all, for a long time.

4. We were told the Iraqis would welcome us and be gratefull. Instead they hate our guts and want us to leave.

'Mission Accomplished'? What mission was accomplished? Its a complete and utter disaster. So whats your problem with the Germans and the French? Theyre the ones who tried to stop us from jumping off the ledge, but we flipped them the bird and jumped anyway. Lets try be honest, we're the ones at fault from begining to end in this fiasco.

 

[Phantom Lord]

Dumb Pothead, you have my deepest respect for that post.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

So what sollution do we propose, insurgent... punishing Germany and France for being right?

 

[insurgent]

If you read the post, you will see, that I don't really propose a solution. Letting the French and Germans have their will and paying for its implementation with their own lives and money, is not an option. I don't know what should be done.

Personally, I think power should be handed over to a democratically elected Iraqi government at first given possibility, and that we should get the hell out of there... But I doubt it can be done responsibly.

 

[Neomega]

A democratically elected government in Iraq would put shiite fundamentalists in control.

 

[insurgent]

Is that a fact? Then I guess we won't have to hold any more elections... Tell me, who will win the next elections here in Denmark?

Seriously, I don't think they will win, but if they do, then fair enough. If it's the will of the people.

 

[sysyphus]

Originally posted by Neomega
A democratically elected government in Iraq would put shiite fundamentalists in control.

That is the real problem: democracy doesn't evolve overnight.

With culture of oppression embedded so deep in Iraqi society, the people just don't know how to make it work. There's a big learning curve involved and it's going to be a very long time before Iraq can become a real democracy.

 

[Neomega]

Originally posted by insurgent
Is that a fact? Then I guess we won't have to hold any more elections...

Well, probably not... because an "election" would start with two parties not allowed to participate..... no Islamists and no Socialist/Baathists. Whose left.... Puppet Chalabi!

But, if it were to go majority rule in Iraq, without a doubt, the Shiites would win. The Bishop is the 2nd most powerful piece on the chessboard, and religion is one hell of a political tool. Who do you think Saddam was oppressing all those years?

The best hope for democracy in Iraq is a long bloody war where Iraq unites to drive out the Americans, and then decides to band together for a defensive reason and show the solidarity required for such a victory. This country building stuff ain't gonna fly. Chalabi was despised for beeing a corrupt politician, and now America is trying to put him in control. Iraqis are a fairly well educated bunch.... they'll know a puppet when they see one.