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Solutions to Fix the Holy Roman Empire Problem

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by monkspider, Jun 20, 2007.

  1. monkspider

    monkspider Chieftain

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    There is a very reasonable amount of anger and bewilderment at the announcement that the HRE is included in BtS as civilization. The arguments against their inclusion very correctly point out that Holy Roman Empire is hardly anything but a proto Germany. Others point out that at it's best, it couldn't be considered a true civilization by any measure, since it was more of an political construct, and no one considered themselves "Holy Romans". Even others would add that Charlemagne never actually ruled what was the Holy Roman Empire, in fact it wasn't even established until 200 years after his death.

    In light of all of these facts, most members of the CFC would consider their inclusion to be very blockheaded (and dare I say, dumb) move. But fear not, there may still be time to act. BtS has not gone gold, and it is possible (even if unlikely) that the community could persuade Firaxis to correct this rather silly mistake.

    1. Having not seen Charlemagne's actual artwork, it is possible that he could pass as a Polish, or Hungarian leader. Hey, it worked for Alexander and Augustus during the early Civ IV beta, and Qin and Kublai more recently. The HRE UU and UB sound generic enough that they could probably be repurposed as well.

    2. Failing this, they could at least rename the Holy Roman Empire to the Frankish Empire. The Franks are probably unlikely to be on anyone's top Civ lists but they are more historically accurate, and would allow Firaxis to keep the actual leaderhead as Charlemagne, which was probably their main reason for including the HRE as a civ.

    3. A final, rather novel solution would be to make Charlemagne leader of both France and Germany. This would be kind of fun and unique, after all no other leader can be used with two different countries. This would bypass the French vs. German dispute on Charlemagne's nationality with the only real downsides be that they are not making use of their art assets for the HRE UU and UB and would create the slim possibility that Charlemagne might occasionally fight himself.


    If you can think of any other solutions, feel free to add them or if you just want to chime in on your disapproval of the HRE"s inclusion (or your approval). But I think the community has a chance to persuade Firaxis on this, a company that has been historically receptive to the community's wishes, so let's try to send a strong message.:goodjob:
     
  2. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Chieftain

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    Honestly, the best way to fix the "problem" at this point is not to get upset about it. They are in, and there's nothing that can be done. I am actually looking forward to it now after being surprised initially. They seem to have a good UU and UB, and it looks very interesting. I now support the HRE!

    The Holy Romans are coming! Make no mistake: whether we bring our enemies to Holy Rome, or Holy Rome to our enemies, Holy Rome will be done.
     
  3. Alter Ego

    Alter Ego Chieftain

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    I agree with Gaius Octavius. Also, I've always considered the in-game German civ to be more of a representation of Prussified Germany, and thus Prussian 'civilization'.
     
  4. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Chieftain

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    Charlemagne: I am leader of the Holy Romans, We are way more Holier then the Romans, And the Byzantines. That is why we are Holy Romans. I command the Holy Roman Army which consists of only Priest. We beat our Enemies by converting them to Christianity, Even though our state religion is Taoism."

    Do you really want something stupid like that for HRE?
     
  5. bode404

    bode404 Chieftain

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    I dont like it too, but persuading Firaxis to undo this is impossible. It's easier to have a mod to change them into another civ.
     
  6. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Okay seriously, how many threads do you need to create to whine about the Holy Roman Empire? It's ridiculous! Just shut up and stop your whining! It's a game that is easy to mod so if you don't like it, then change the name to whatever you want it to be and quit boring us with these redundant posts! They're in! Just accept it!
     
  7. ChrTh

    ChrTh Mmm...tasty!

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    This poll disagrees with that statement.
     
  8. monkspider

    monkspider Chieftain

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    Eh? Only 15% were actually happy about it. The most popular option was that it was not their first choice (41%). The last two options were even more negative, and combined they had nearly 43% of the vote.
     
  9. Vrenir

    Vrenir Chieftain

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    How about make the HRE more of a multi-ethnic body, like America by transferring Fredrick and possibly adding a Habsburg to the leader list. Then you get the HRE that is Frankish, Proto-German, and Austrian depending on who is in charge at the time, more of what it really was.
     
  10. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Chieftain

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    Take solace in the fact that with Imperialistic and Protective as their traits, no one with an IQ above room temperature is going to use them, and that in AI hands that same combo will always guarantee that they will feebly limp around the bottom of the scoreboard and never be a threat.

    :)
     
  11. Breunor

    Breunor Chieftain

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    I wouldn't necessarily view the poll that way. I voted for the second category becuase I don't CARE AT ALL about who is included and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way.

    There is NO Civilization I would have voted for the top choice, that I'm happy about it.

    To MANY of us on this forum, and probably even more players not on this forum, its just a game!

    Breunor
     
  12. ChrTh

    ChrTh Mmm...tasty!

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    What Breunor said. Note also what the second option fully stated:

    Eh, it's ok. Not my first choice, but I don't mind.

    So 56% are either happy about HRE or don't mind its inclusion. Therefore, the contention that "most members of CFC" have an issue with its inclusion is exaggerated at best and delusional at worst.
     
  13. sennomulo

    sennomulo Friendly

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    Meh, the Holy Roman Empire is in, and if you're upset about it, look at it this way: it's a civilization you don't have any qualms about removing, so you can replace it with your favorite civ mod without really sacrificing anything. Currently if we want to add a civ we like, we have to give up a civ that we like to see in the game. In BtS this won't be a problem. Just remove the HRE and replace it with a real civilization. Personally, I'm going to replace it with Austria.
     
  14. Illini Rule

    Illini Rule Chieftain

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    The only reason HRE is seen as so hated is that those like me don't feel we need to say anything because it is already in the game. This discution starts after every new game and expantion pack.
     
  15. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    Firaxis' decision has pissed off that part of the community which is concerned with historical accuracy and fairness. For the latter, the HRE is simply another Germany, the Reich or as it was later known the First Reich that during the brief period of Germany's non-existence (1806-1871, ignoring the Austrian led German Confederation) German nationalists wanted to reconstruct. People who wanted other civs to get a chance are rightly pissed off. Western Europe is already overrepresesented without giving Germany two civs. How are Poles or people wanting Israel, Polynesians, or more non-European civs supposed to feel about it? As for accuracy, there was no "Holy Roman civilization" (the civilization of that state was staunchly, proudly and aggressively German) and Charlemagne lived long before the HRE ever existed. In short, Firaxis is making a historical joke of itself. :lol:

    I mean, the game itself is inherently inaccurate. I don't have a problem with that. It's fundamentally a game! But inaccuracies this great become too distracting and irksome, and are irresponsible. However, appealing to Firaxis would likely get nowhere. They're a huge gaming company, not a historical society, and could make the Martians a civ with Napoleon as leader and still rake in millions. Suffice it to say, historical fuddy-duddies don't take up a high percentage of the market. But as a medium of such popularity and far-reachedness, we can't let them off the hook so easily. I would much prefer them to take their public responsibilities more seriously than reverse merely this individual decision. The developers of Civ4 have been showing nothing but contempt for historical considerations, and doubtless they make private jokes about the historically minded as being too serious, etc. Sure, they have a cool UU and UB, and the HRE has a general coolness that doubtless makes it appealing to many (including myself to be honest), but that doesn't remove its dumbness or the unfairness.

    But there is no contradiction between historical accuracy in detail and cool gameplay. The Praetorian is a cool UU, but renaming it a Legionary wouldn't take away from that coolness . That being said, use the UU and UB as flavour units for Germany (or, dare I say, replacements? If Hitler is not even one leader, then why give Germany Hitler-era associations:? ;) ), and either add Charlemagne to France (4 leaders for a civ that few non-French people ever play!) or (my preference) use him either as 1) a leader for a Hungarian, Lithuanian, Polish or Polish-Lithuanian civ or 2) a new leader for Spain. Or 3) maybe they could darken his skin and he could be Harun al-Rashid! That would be great, an actual Caliph as leader of the Arabs. :goodjob:
     
  16. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

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    They should have made a Hapsburg the leader for HRE... then people would realize that this is not a FRENCH or GERMAN or ROMAN civ, but a multinational one made up of other regions that these current civs do not necessarily cover. I really think people would have been more at ease with HRE if Marie Therese (Frederick's archenemy) or Charles V (hey, the poor guy didn't make the cut for Spain's second leader, and he technically was "Holy Roman Emperor") were leader than Charlemagne.
     
  17. flamingzaroc121

    flamingzaroc121 Chieftain

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    Wait, there is a problem with HRE? well i dont think so, i think the history nerds on this site just want to nitpick at everything Firaxis does because they have nothing better to do with themselves.
     
  18. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    HRE is usualy accepted as the first German empire but it wasn't exclusively German. It also contained the Low Countries, parts of France, Switzerland, Austria and norther Italy. It was a western European empire that lasted for a 1000 years. I think it should be in it. I don't have a problem with it.
     
  19. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    Austria, parts of France and Swizerland and the Low Countries (excl. Waloonia of course) were German. The Low Countries only ceased to consider themselves or be considered Germans only after they were removed from the Empire (by the king of Spain); significant, isn't it? Northern Italy, i.e. the Kingdom of the Lombards and Burgundy were Kingdoms acquired by the King of Germany, not part of it. Making this important is like saying the dominions of Catherine and Peter and Stalin were not Russia, because that state now excludes Ukraine-Belarus, not to mention central Asia and the Baltic. This is Civilization, not post-Cold War Nation States! ;)
     
  20. TheArchduke

    TheArchduke Feeling at home..

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    Why make a new civilization, when you can copy one from a scenario?

    This is why the HRE is in.:D

    (Karl V. would have been way better then Charlemagne at the least..)
     

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