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Some advice for people trying to beat wonder addiction.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Monkeyfinger, Dec 29, 2007.

  1. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    I was an obsessive wonder spammer in Civ2 and SMAC, I know what I'm talking about.

    I started out the same way in Civ4. What made me stop? The realization that wonders were toned down in this game, and that lots of them just weren't helping me. So the cure to wonder addiction is to single out crappy wonders and resolve to never build them, while focusing on the ones that are actually worth the hammers.

    Here's a good list to avoid.

    Parthenon (WHOO A NEGLIGIBLE BOOST TO YOUR GP FARM)

    Temple of Artemis (Only an inland city can reasonably scrounge up the hammers to get this, and those cities don't get a whole lot from trade route boosters. Plus, bombing a GM in a city with the ToA increases the yield the GM's owner gets, so by building this you neuter your GMs and beef up the ones owned by rivals on your continent. So basically, you're giving up a lot of hammers and potential GM power in exchange for a free priest. ...)

    Great Lighthouse (similar to the temple of artemis, only here hammer rich cities are flat out incapable of making this)

    Colossus (See above + it sucks ass. For what would you want a small boost to tiles that are horrible to work?)

    Shwedegon Paya (OR and Theocracy are easy to get the old fashioned way, Pacifism would be a little harder if it weren't attached to such a valuable tech, and Free Religion is great late but kinda sucks early)

    Statue of Zeus (It allows you to cause some extra unhappiness to a civ you're at war with if and only if the battles are taking place on your turf... yeah...)

    Chichen Itza (That extra 25% defense is sure going to last a while against those stacks of siege units that humans and AIs alike love to use so much.)

    Notre dame, Sistine Chapel (SC has a good effect on paper, ND does not. What they have in common, though, is that the AI loves to build them as soon as they become able to try to, and are attached to techs that the AI prioritizes extremely heavily. The result is that you aren't going to win the race to either of these wonders unless you are playing on Settler or something. Don't try to.)

    Versailles (It's like the Forbidden Palace, only like five times as expensive!)

    The 3 gorges dam (Too late, too expensive. Broken effect on paper, but it's going to last you like 10 turns then someone wins the game.)

    And the absolute bottom of the barrel...

    Angkor Wat (All this does is improve a kind of specialist you should never be running during this stage of the game due to the crappy GPs they spit out. Not only that, but the Angkor Wat gives the city governors a <preference> for priests. Unless you constantly watch your cities, they will become overrun with priests, so their output will plummet and you'll never see a non-prophet GP until AW obsoletes. I would therefore argue that even if you factor out the cost of building it, the Angkor Wat actively harms your empire overall unless you have enough patience with micromanaging

    Moderator Action: Final paragraph cleaned-up. Warned.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  2. LuckyAC

    LuckyAC Immortal

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    Well, you can have a Forbidden Palace and Versailles at the same time.
     
  3. fuzzynutz

    fuzzynutz Chieftain

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    I think I have a mancrush on you.
     
  4. Bobbalouie

    Bobbalouie Chieftain

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    When I was suffering from wonder addiction, I read (in the war academy i think) that the best was to recover was to play w/o building any wonders at all. See what you can do w/o them. Then try out the wonders, see what they do for you.
     
  5. Err0l

    Err0l Chieftain

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    I'm normally playing SE, so I disagree (a bit), though the GA-Pollution is not nice...


    Disagree - play TRE (Trade Route Economy). It ROCKS, if you play Archipelago. Each city grants 30 commerce from start on. And, I found that those wonders are usually manageable with some forests. ToA grants an empire-wide boost to trade routes (iirc), btw.

    The religious branch is crap, starting with monotheism. (Yes, I'm sometimes playing obsolete strategies...) This gives GA pollution too. Worthwhile with gold, imo.

    Yep, let the AI build this wonder and benefit from less expenses when you conquer them ;)

    If obsolete would read that...... I don't build it frequently, though. (in fact, in non-obsolete games, I'm building absolutely zero wonders...)


    Just my two cents.
     
  6. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    Naah, I disagree Monkeyfinger

    Wonder addiction is one thing, and b*ching on them is another.

    Every wonder has it's uses, and it is only up to You, the player to choose which one.
    Wonders were toned down? :lol:
    Collossus in Civ2 - ONE city has the benefit, not "every water tile in Your borders". And so on.

    Of course that if one is warmongering, without marble and in high demand of army, then building Parthenon is out of the question. But if You're Philo, with Marble and plan to run SE then Parthenon is a GREAT thing.

    I don't want to write too much about it, I can only say that if this is not Your attempt to turn away newbies from some wonder-madness, than it only show that You kinda lack of flexibility.

    Everything in this game is situational, so it's entirely up to You whether You'll build wonders and enjoy their effects and +GPP or, say, build an army for invasion or start spy-flooding.
    In my games I'm building wonders mentioned by You every now and then. And they are helpful :cool:

    Can't/have problems to build a Lighthouse/Colo in coastal cities? Pwah!
     
  7. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Not good advice. Focus on the wonders that are worth building? Definitely. But those aren't the same in every situation. For example:

    Some of my easiest wins have been thanks to a ToA/GLh combo (on some maps this is so powerful you can rely on trade routes to power your entire economy).

    Colossus can be immense - the most powerful wonder by far on many watery maps.

    Angkor Wat can be very powerful indeed if you leverage it right. Perfect for warmongering victories imo.

    I could go on...

    As serious as your underestimation of these wonders is, though, you make an even bigger mistake in suggesting that your approach is any cure for wonder addiction. All you're doing is becoming addicted to less wonders.

    The best (and perhaps the only real) cure for wonder addiction is total abstinence.

    Don't build ANY wonders at all.

    Play a series of games like that, and learn to win without relying on shiny things. Not only will you become a much more flexible player, you'll also be forced to iron out the weaknesses in your game that have been masked by all the wonders you've been building.

    Edit:

    'fraid not. Just in its home city. Can still be incredibly powerful, though. :D
     
  8. v8_mark

    v8_mark Prince

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    Another big Angkor Wat fan here. If I'm at any stage of the game where I need a Great Prophet, AW is very useful indeed.

    It's also a very nice boost to production - it basically lets you run 4 engineers (at +1 gold) in that city, and if you have multiple religions, you can run multiple priests in other cities too. You can get some ridiculous numbers of base hammers with AW even before industrialization.
     
  9. Bureaucracy

    Bureaucracy Chieftain

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    ?

    If you are using the city governor then is not that your fault to blame? Most top players won't touch it.

    It has been a long time since I read some of the walkthroughs, but I did a quick scan this morning.

    Here is one of ABigCivFan's warmongering immortal level games. You may not see the wonder(s) listed, but you know he built the Wat because he has 3 priests running. Also to make a point, you can see he also has the Colussus by the increased ocean-gold.




    And here is a shot from one of Obsolete's immortal games. It is aparent he is using the Wat to make something work for him.




    I am WONDERing, if you still believe they are wrong to do so, then I'd like to see some valid arguements here. If however, you are a diety God, and trouncing over these guys, then I'll be looking forward to seeing one of your games.
     
  10. reverend oats

    reverend oats King

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    The ToA does not give an empire-wide trade route bonus, fyi.
     
  11. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I gotta disagree, all wonders have their places, well almost all.

    There are some that come in rare circumstances though

    Chichen Izta: Only useful for those rare starts where you have no metals or horses and are protective. It may be just enough to get Muskets and trebs.

    Hag Sophia: Only useful if you are hopelessly stuck in jungles.

    Notre Dame: Good for isolated starts with limited happy resources and you want to limit military (and thus HR) while encouraging city growth.

    The GL, Col, ToA, AW, Ver., 3GD are all valuable in most situations although sometimes hard to get.

    My biggest question in wonders, does it affect my military to the point where I am opening myself up to attack or critially affecting my economy building it.
     
  12. Lord Chambers

    Lord Chambers Emperor

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    Always entertaining Monkeyfinger.

    I'd put a vote behind removing the Great Lighthouse from your list. It's vital on water based maps, and I've often found it worth building even on Pangaea when I start on the coast. Comparing it to some often built wonders like the Pentagon or Great Wall, it's generally more valuable for your game. Honestly, offhand, the only wonders I'd list as more useful are the Pyramids, Great Library, and Sistine Chapel (for cultural victory).
     
  13. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    I agree with you completely, this is almost exactly what I wanted to say too.

    @Monkeyfinger:
    Every wonder has it uses, sometimes. The thing is to know what wonders do you need in a specific game. You don't need all of the wonders (and on higher levels it's impossible to get all of them), so you need to decide which ones are the best for that game. If you are playing "the obsolute style", you want "Anger What" for sure! If you are aiming for cultural victory, you want as many GArtist pollution wonders as possible. Btw, what makes you think GProphets suck? And priest specialists definitely rock with AW. Same amount of hammers as engineer gives, with extra gold on top of it!
     
  14. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Great lighouse don't suck most of the time and collosus is often great though if you want to build it, it is good to delay astro and if you are working tons of water titles ods are delaying astro is rather bad...

    Best cure for wonder adiction is as already mentioned to skip all wonders. You don't need great library. You don't need oracle. Heck you don't even need hanging gardens when you have 12 cities and stone!
     
  15. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    I get the OP point here but my jaw dropped when I saw TGL being bashed.. on a sea-heavy map I often prefer this over pyramids, it is potentially one of the strongest wonders you can get.

    Also great priests are getting unfairly bashed, no matter what I find it's a rare day that I prefer either a merchant or an artist over these guys, and early on I prefer them over engineers. If you're not running a SE you're less reliant on bulbing and the production value of the GP is enough to make them and GEs the best after you've gotten an academy.
     
  16. Kanidyen

    Kanidyen Chieftain

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    If you're not watching your cities, then what exactly are you doing? Having the ability to work tiles a specific way and hire specialists is what makes this game great. Suggesting that this is a 'bad' way of playing is worse than suggesting to 'skip all wonders'

    I think it's bad advice to give some blanket statement like 'just skip all wonders.' As previously mentioned, they all have thier uses, and they're an integral part of the game. Instead, I would suggest to a struggling new/inexperienced player with a penchant to build too many world wonders is to focus on a stronger national wonder strategy. NWs are very strong, and learning to plan them correctly leads to good city specialization across the civilization, which is what we all know is what we want to see. Once that's in place, then learn to carefully plan to use the specific wonders that will work best given the situation.
     
  17. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Players trying to overcome wonder addiction should play a few games where they forbid themselves from building wonders.

    Certain wonders listed in the op are actually good depending on your playstyle. E.g., parthenon. If you are only building it for a negligible boost to your gpfarm then yes it is a waste. However, if you are running an empire-wide SE and/or if you are combining it with pyramids/GL/NE/caste system/pacificism then it can be helpful, especially if you have marble and can build it on the cheap in a production city. It usually hangs around late in games and you can pick it up when you don't have any other immediate production needs for a city.

    Colossus also can be very helpful, especially for financial leaders where all coast tiles now become 2f4c--very respectable tiles in the early going. It also helps those coastal cities which make up about 1/3 of your empire usually where they have some resources so are worth building but otherwise are forced to work coastal tiles for the most part once they pass size 6-7. On archipelago maps it is arguably the most powerful wonder.

    Basically, wonders in civ4 are situational. You want to build some. But the key word is some. And many new players build too many. Some are very valuable, like the GL and the SoL.
     
  18. Kennigit

    Kennigit proud 2 boxer

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    To cure wonder addiction, I'd suggest that besides playing a game of no wonders, play a game on a higher difficulty. Don't worry if you get beat down or crushed- you'll soon realize that you don't need any wonders and/or will fall behind at all unless you plan ahead (obsolete). As you move up, generally wonders are much less important.
     
  19. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Going up in difficulty, however, creates additional difficulties that have nothing to do with wonders that newer players may not be able to handle.
     
  20. Kennigit

    Kennigit proud 2 boxer

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    True, but I would think going up & losing shows that you would need to change/improve your game in the future to move up the ladder. My guess would be that most wonder-addicts that move up in difficulty would realize that they need to divert their production and research away from purely wonders in order to accommodate for the new challenges. Just a guess anyway.
     

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