Some comments on modern war

ventricle

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Messages
11
Location
Boston
As a long time player of Civ, Civ 2, and now Civ 3, I usually tend to build up my empire, have 20-30 cities and just build and build. I like to wag modern war, with tanks, mech inf, etc. I have found that the key to waging war is mobility.

I like the new concepts of cultre and how that causes movement penelties on your units as you invade another Civ. It is much more realistic than in Civ 2 where all you would need is some howitzers and move across an enemies railroad network.

I often find myself having to hold units back, waiting for my assult troops to take or raze a city before moving the the second wave. To quote Tom Clancy, an operational maneuver group (OMG), the second wave of troops that waits for the breakout along the front lines and then rushes in to eploit the gap. Much like Patton marching across France in WWII.

I find that in the modern era, the modern tank is the obvious unit of choice, with some mech inf to go along. I wish there were more uses for other units, because then different strategies could be used, but now, even on the higher difficulty levels, modern armor, mech inf, radar artillery workings from a landing point and then snaking out is the best stragey. I wish there was more use for the specialized units, such as paratroppers, marines, and helicopters.

As for naval battles, I find that the AI often lags behind in its development of naval power. I wish that the aircraft carrier was more of the dominant force that it is in the real word. Not only does it posses power projection, but it requires a severe commitment to defend a carrier with submarines and Aegis crusiers. In Civ 3, I can park a couple of carriers off the AI coast and conduct strategic bombing of the capital and resources. I am also upset that the power of nuclear submarines is limited and that they can be engaged by sail units. The movement rates of modern naval units does not work well, especially when one plays of a huge map. It can take upto 20 turns to move a unit across the globe. Also, the effectiveness of naval bombardment is limited by the land size.

Though I am a fan of this game and of the series, I wish that a little more effort went into desgining and play testing some of the units. Because now, there is no reason to build marines, paratroopers, helicopters when it modern armor units are much more usefull. I just wish that there was more flexibility in the modern warfare strategies, other than getting a huge land army and crushing your opponent.
 
Yes....well, I'll admit that thereare many things in civ3 that are not realistic, but the
purpose is to have fun! Just because paratroopers/marines/helicopters
are not the strongest units does
not mean that they cannot be used.
Sometimes it is better to have a
strategic raid of helicopters/marines
rather than a massive attack of the
strongest units.


I agree, however, that the
AI is not big on naval units.
In most of my games the AI
stops building naval units
after ironclads :(.....

It would be interesting to have
an AI that has a more realistic
war-like strategy....:hammer:
 
the one thing about Civ2 that i liked better than the Civ3 was the ability to mod a centralized file that would be used for any randomly-generated map. with Civ3, you have to mod a pre-generated map, which I guess you could then rendomize when used, so its similar to the Civ2 concept. the only thing wrong is this:

if you want to test whether a mod you made will cause the game to crash, you have to play the game to the point where your mod comes into effect. For example - I modified the tactical nuke so that it wasnt a nuke, renamed it to Harpoon to simulate a long-range conventional missile more powerful than the built-in cruise missile. By the time i was able to build my Harpoon I had spent 6 or so hours playing, only to find that the game would crash if I tried to select Harpoon in my built queue. :cry:
 
Yes, crashing is yet another serious problem with Civ III.
 
it would seem that editing the tactical nuke to not be a nuke crashes the game.

i also edited the ICBM to be non-nuclear, and all it did when i attacked with it was to vanish into thin air.
 
Off-topic: You can test a new unit by making it cost 1 and no required techs. It's kinda fun flying an attack chopper up to your opponents warrior in 3000BC :)

On-topic: Navel movement rates need to scale with the map size. Land units do not, since the size of the culture border (typically 2-3 tiles) which controls how fast a land unit needs to move. I'm not sure how to do this, probably a setting for "+1 movement per x map size" would work. The problem is that visual range would have to also scale.

Cheers,
Shawn
 
You could go into the editor and just give modern ships 20 moves, that would get them across the, say, Pacific Ocean in one turn. I usually play on small, so I don't have that problem, but it is an idea.
 
Ventricle,
I'm in total agreement with your assessment of modern armor. In fact, I don't even build mechanized infantry for offense, but only to defend cities. (They simply can't keep up with modern armor.) Maybe the fact that modern armor can attack twice during the same turn is what makes them so desirable, but I have little time to contemplate alternative units with lesser capabilities while I'm at war, which is most of the time. They can also be built in about the same time-frame as mechanized infantry; and while they don't stand up as a defensive weapon quite as well, I'm not usually functioning in a defensive posture all that much once someone attacks me . . . or not. ;) ES
 
well, Modern Armors are a sweet unit, they are not always the way I conduct modern war. I sometimes use a combo of cruise missles and paratroopers to cut into enemy teritory so that I can use the rails to luanch attacks on other cities and take more cities in the same turn. If it is a pre-planned war, I will build some marines an naval powers, and take their costal cities in the first turn while I am splitting their empire in 2 with the cruise missle/paratrooper/modern armor and mech infanty combo. It works quite well.


P.S. Zouave go back to Ur cave
 
My main strategy is like Patton's in WW2 in Europe: cut through their towns with my armor, don't stop until all the towns I want are mine, and their capital is burning. Then I ship in Mech. Inf. and maybe a few of my suped up marines with 9 defense.
 
Ya know, what I'd really like to see (and would be more than willing to pay for) is an AI with a learning capability. That way your strategy would have to change as the game brain began to figure YOU out. ;) ES
 
Originally posted by Dragoten
...
I agree, however, that the
AI is not big on naval units.
In most of my games the AI
stops building naval units
after ironclads :(.....

I found this to be true until my last game.
Egypt, one of the AI, had an armada. Mind you, this was on Marla's World Map - but I kid you not with the figures; 23 battleships (23!), 7 carriers, well over 30 destoyers, 18 submarines...
It was great.
I also got slaughtered.

I had a fleet of 30-something various ships, thinking that this game would be like all the others. It was a pleasant (and awe-inspiring) surprise - witnessing this endless sweep of enemy units through my Indian Ocean.
It also taught me to never, ever allow the point leader to sit off by themselves for any length of time. While everyone else slugged it out in what turned out to be hopelessly pointless wars, Cleo was pumping up.
 
AI usually spends too much effort on the naval units. They will build tons of battleships to bombard my coastline. I'll send some artillery right there and knock their HP down to 1. Then i'll send in my transports covered by at the most 2 ships.

IMO AI spends to much time on navy.
 
Originally posted by Emmet Samms
Ya know, what I'd really like to see (and would be more than willing to pay for) is an AI with a learning capability. That way your strategy would have to change as the game brain began to figure YOU out. ;) ES

Have you ever seen the Terminator series? :lol:
 
Originally posted by ventricle
. . . I wish that a little more effort went into desgining and play testing some of the units. Because now, there is no reason to build marines, paratroopers, helicopters when it modern armor units are much more usefull. I just wish that there was more flexibility in the modern warfare strategies, other than getting a huge land army and crushing your opponent.

Exactly.

All post-gunpowder units are also far too weak - a Firaxis designer trick to compensate for those civs lacking one of their all too rare resources. Edit the units and the resources up.

"A little more effort into designing. . .". Well, when the original game gives elephants airlift capabilities, and cruise missiles a range of '2', you do have to wonder about that effort.
 
I immediately modded CMs to have a bombard range of 5.
 
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