"some features only function if [religion] is your state religion"

[Noriad2]

"some features only function if [religion] is your state religion"

Looks like a new rule on religious buildings. How can I find out which features require adopting the corresponding state religion, and which don't?

 

[KaTiON_PT]

It looks like you're using the religious disabling option? I believe it simply disables all stats from a building that belongs to a given religion if you have another as the state one.

 

[Thunderbrd]

"some features only function if [religion] is your state religion"

Looks like a new rule on religious buildings. How can I find out which features require adopting the corresponding state religion, and which don't?

It looks like you're using the religious disabling option? I believe it simply disables all stats from a building that belongs to a given religion if you have another as the state one.

True that most features of a religious building shut down if you're on religious disabling and the building is not dedicated to your state religion. On most civics anyhow. Some civics are so intolerant that ALL aspects of the building are disabled if it's a religious building of a religion you're not on as a state religion and some are so tolerant that all aspects of all buildings operate fine (though usually you don't get to declare a state religion at all so that's kinda a downside.) With the trait sts I have planned it will get more interesting still as tolerance factors are also a trait feature on some traits.

However, that text shows up on games that don't use religious disabling at all. On those games, I think you simply have to have the religion in the city to build the building and that's mostly what it means though there is also some religious happiness tag that only works if you have the religion declared as state religion. The tag will tell you that it only operates when the building is of your state religion in that case.

I can't recall the full list of tags that are disabled on religious disabling for a partially disabled building - it's most. I know defense and some culture tags still operate, and most importantly the building is 'considered to be in the city' which is not the case if complete intolerance is in effect. I think base health and happiness tags may still be functional too.

 

[Noriad2]

I don't have "religious disabling" on but I still get the text on all religious buildings. Which leads to confusion, notably which building features will get lost if I change state religion, and which features don't.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't have "religious disabling" on but I still get the text on all religious buildings. Which leads to confusion, notably which building features will get lost if I change state religion, and which features don't.

If you have Multiple religion Spread On in BUG you won't lose much if any If you switch religions. I can't play without that Option being On any more. I really dislike Disabling Religions because it is totally random and can come at the worst of times. It should rather be a Random Event and/or Strategic Event as it can be devastatingly bad.

If you play around and do some switches you will soon learn what you lose or don't. But I don't think your going to get a "Neat" list of descriptions maybe ever. Or are you so good you can always get the religion you desire the most? Then if so what does it matter?

 

[Noriad2]

@JosEPh_II: stacking religions, where you try to research as many religions as you can, instead of going for the economic and military techs, has been a valid strategy up to now. But if switching state religion disables all the buildings and wonders of the old religion then the religion stacking strategy becomes much less valuable.

Of course I can find out stuff myself by playing a full game. But I prefer getting the summary beforehand.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II: stacking religions, where you try to research as many religions as you can, instead of going for the economic and military techs, has been a valid strategy up to now. But if switching state religion disables all the buildings and wonders of the old religion then the religion stacking strategy becomes much less valuable.

Well if you "can be" the 1st to research a religion and then another then yes it's a viable strategy. But even when you can not research the religion 1st, trying to allow other Civs religions to come into your empire is beneficial with Multiple Religion spread On. I've had to accept another Empires religion so that later on I might have a chance of getting a later Religion 1st. In fact this happened in my SVN 10015 Deity game. Alexander had Shamanism 1st and because I select Deganiwida as My Leader I got it spread to my empire. I used it till I had caught up with some of the AI and was able to Research and found Buddhism 1st. Even though some of the AI already had Rodnivera, Helenism, and even Christianity before I got Buddhism. I caught a lucky break I think.

But I'm still also actively spreading Shamanism as well as Buddhism to all my cities. To get the benefits of both. Zorastrianism just showed up in the last few turns and I will spread it too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't have "religious disabling" on but I still get the text on all religious buildings. Which leads to confusion, notably which building features will get lost if I change state religion, and which features don't.

I know my explanation was a little long and confusing but, as I said,if you don't have religious disabling on then it only affects tags that clearly state that the effect only works if the building's religion is your state religion.

It might ease your mind to understand this is not a new effect, just a new text explanation. This has been a facet of all these buildings all along so its nothing you're not already used to.

 

[BlueTemplar]

In theory, you should only get promotions from religious buildings that match your state religion, if you have one - and the religious disabling option should allow to instead get most promotions from different religious buildings other than your state religion. At least that's how I read the description of it. It's also in beta, so I don't normally use it...
Then there's secularism and atheism, which I think simply default to no state religion, in which case... you should get most promotions again? Not sure, it's always been quite confusing.
Aside from promotions, I found that other benefits are always granted, including military effects such as extra units XP and bonsu (or malus) training speed.

I always assumed religious disabling would disable religions completely; I think I never read the discription at all after reading your post. But on other hand I always have religious disabling unchecked also with previous versions and it worked differently before. I'll try and see what happens if I change that setting in world builder.

Edit: When I highlight the checkbox for religious disabling at game start, it states: "Religious buildings of non state religions go mostly inactive by default, but effect may be avoided by strategic decisions....." If I read this right; the effect is intended to happen when the box is checked, but it looks as if it also happens when this box is not checked now. Before v42 this wasn't the case, as far as I can remember.

Edit 2: I went into worldbuilder and activated religious disabling, but newly build units still won't get the promotions from religious buildings (pankration etc). I guess the option is always on now, no matter if you choose it at gamestart or not.

From player's guide :

​

• Choose Religions: Whenever you found a religion you get to pick from the religions that haven't been founded yet. This was a cosmetic decision in Vanilla. Not so in C2C. Here, all religions are different by a lot of factors. In fact, we leave this option here purely for players who REALLY like it but the mod team would encourage you NOT to use this option as the abilities of various religions are balanced to the eras in which they come into play. In single player games, I don't play with it myself, but it can be strategically fun to have full choice with all the religions being so different. My wife and I enjoy playing with it on in our team games though.
  
  
• 
  
  
• Limited Religions: In a nutshell, makes it so a player may only found a religion (when the conditions to do so are met) IF and only IF they do NOT have a current Holy City and they haven't founded one previously. The intention is to enforce that access to founding a religion is spread over all players and can't be so easily hoarded, particularly into one super holy city of many religions. Personally, I find it irritating. But some players like it so I've done a lot to debug it.
  
  
• No Inquisitions: Keeps the inquisitor unit out of the game. They can be trained under some civics and they are used to remove all religions but your state religion in cities. I like the idea of having them be part of the game personally.
  
  
• 
  
  
• Unlimited Wonders: Removes the wonder limit per city, both for world wonders and national wonders. This means you can build an unlimited number of them in one city. When off, you are challenged to spread out your wonders and specialize your cities further. In C2C, if wonders ARE limited, then it is limited to a count based on the amount of culture you've obtained so the limits CAN expand, unlike in Vanilla. I still don't play with limits on wonders so I turn this right on for my games. This means I can play a super-city strategy BUT I'm finding new balance factors are making that a bad idea to overfocus your accomplishments into one city lately, with or without this option. Which is good. Means it's now a balanced game either way really.
  
  
• 
  
  
• Religion Decay: Religions that aren't your state religion will fall from use in your cities now and then. This is intended to represent the evolving religious adherence among the people Personally I find it makes the game a little bit more like playing 'whack-a-mole' so it's not a favorite for me, but it's certainly been improved as a system since it's first iterations.
  
  
• 
  
  
• Divine Prophets: C2C's first unique option (and my first modding effort ever!) Religions are founded by Great Prophets. Furthermore, Great Prophets may spread any tech qualified religion to any city he chooses to go to and spread it and if you are the first to spread a given religion, you are founding that religion (so you may want to check the Religious advisor to see which religions have and have not yet been founded.) When you are first to reach a religious tech, rather than getting a religion, you get a Great Prophet. If Choose Religions is OFF then your Prophets may only found those religions you have the tech for. With Choose Religions ON, earning a Prophet can allow you to found any religion that hasn't been founded yet. The option is compatible with Limited Religions as well.
  
  Some feel this option is great because it allows you to place the Holy City wherever you want it. Others feel it's too exploitable. Even as the designer of the option I can see both sides and eventually plan to provide another option that may help to balance it out more, but I still heavily prefer it to having the city the religion goes into being random, particularly in C2C where not all religions are the same. It helps to enable better city specialization but also does urge a super-city approach, particularly for the AI.
  Also, if you use Divine Prophets, don't take it as a bug if the AI doesn't always immediately use a Prophet for founding a religion if possible. It may be trying to hold the Free Prophet so it can use it for the shrine as soon as it gets the religion it really wants (which must be close on the tech tree for this to happen.

• Religious Disabling: There are lots of buildings and wonders that are accessed by having religions. It has been observed that hoarding religions, particularly with so many in the game, can be a little imbalanced. This option makes it so that any buildings dedicated to religions that aren't your state religions are generally not going to function unless you have a civic that enables them all, regardless of state religion. It's a LITTLE deeper than that but this description pretty much covers it. Thus temples and cathedrals and monasteries of religions that aren't your state religion's are disabled until you either change state religion or select the civic(s) that allow all to operate at once. I like the option and usually play with it on in my single player games.

 

[BlueTemplar]

My idea as to how this *should* work, while being legible to the player :

A faith value, separate for state and all non-state religions.
Picking a state religion gives it +1 faith.
The current "religious disabling" option would give +1 state faith, -1 other faith.

Various civics and leader traits also would have an effect on this, for instance :

civics :
state church : +1 state faith
free church : +1 all faith
inquisitorial : +1 state faith, -1 other faith
antireligion : -1 faith, and -1 extra faith for state religion

leader traits : (probably only for the first levels ?)
pious : +1 state faith
spiritual : +1 all faith
zealous : +1 state faith, -1 other faith
anti-clerical : -1 faith, and -1 extra faith for state religion

Then various stuff gives bonuses and gets disabled depending on the faith for each religion :
at 0 faith buildings only give small "secular" bonuses (some culture and tourism I guess ?)
at 1 faith you start getting some interesting bonuses like happiness and the +1 yields per religious spread for shrines
at 2 faith more powerful bonuses like the free promotions get unlocked, &c.
at -1 faith religious buildings get disabled
at -2 faith you can build inquisitors and remove the religions that you have -2 (or more) faith with
(at -3 faith you can destroy holy cities ?)

Then the different faith values for each religion would proportionately affect diplomatic relations ?

(Fist draft, there might be some tweaks needed, for instance getting -2 for inquisitors might be a tad too hard ?)

 

[BigSmac]

From player's guide :

Well that means it is not working as intended at the moment, because religious disabling is activeted no matter if i check the box or not.

 

[BigSmac]

My idea as to how this *should* work, while being legible to the player :

A faith value, separate for state and all non-state religions.
Picking a state religion gives it +1 faith.
The current "religious disabling" option would give +1 state faith, -1 other faith.

Various civics and leader traits also would have an effect on this, for instance :

civics :
state church : +1 state faith
free church : +1 all faith
inquisitorial : +1 state faith, -1 other faith
antireligion : -1 faith, and -1 extra faith for state religion

leader traits : (probably only for the first levels ?)
pious : +1 state faith
spiritual : +1 all faith
zealous : +1 state faith, -1 other faith
anti-clerical : -1 faith, and -1 extra faith for state religion

Then various stuff gives bonuses and gets disabled depending on the faith for each religion :
at 0 faith buildings only give small "secular" bonuses (some culture and tourism I guess ?)
at 1 faith you start getting some interesting bonuses like happiness and the +1 yields per religious spread for shrines
at 2 faith more powerful bonuses like the free promotions get unlocked, &c.
at -1 faith religious buildings get disabled
at -2 faith you can build inquisitors and remove the religions that you have -2 (or more) faith with
(at -3 faith you can destroy holy cities ?)

Then the different faith values for each religion would proportionately affect diplomatic relations ?

(Fist draft, there might be some tweaks needed, for instance getting -2 for inquisitors might be a tad too hard ?)

I like these ideas!

 

[BlueTemplar]

At least at least the game *does* tell you about the promotions :

First of all: thank you all for all the work you put into this game. It's the best I know!

I wanted to mention some minor issues. I play with latest SVN

Maybe this is already known and on someone's to-do list, but I mention it anyway.
I mentioned earlier somewhere in these forums that Martial Arts promotion is broken and I am quite sure it has al to do with the promotions from religious buildings you no longer get unless it's your state religion.
I tried a few things either with or without Taoism as state religion

With Taoism:
City with: Dojo, Masters Dojo and Taoist temple: Unit gets martial arts 1
City with: Dojo, Masters Dojo: Unit gets no martial arts
City with: Taoist Temple: unit gets Martial arts 1
City with: Dojo, Masters Dojo, Shaolin Temple and Taoist Temple: Unit gets martial arts 3

Without Taoism:
City with: Dojo, Masters Dojo and Taoist temple: Unit gets no martial arts
City with: Dojo, Masters Dojo: Unit gets no martial arts
City with: Taoist Temple: Unit gets no martial arts
City with: Dojo, Masters Dojo, Shaolin Temple and Taoist Temple: Unit gets no martial arts

Conclusion is simple I think. Making Martial Arts a religious promotion brakes it, both the Dojo's are useless and Shaolin temple only works when Taoism is state religion. Guess the religious flag should be removed from this promo to fix it. Or maybe create a slightly different promo for Taoist Temple to still make that special....?


Second Thing I noticed is also about a promotion, but something different. For some reason it's not possible to get: Tradition Master Seahunter.
I am almost in renaissance now and I tried with Great Hunter and Great General but I can't make them build it.

Keep up the good work!!

edit: Taoist Temple = Taoist Monestary

I play with religions activated and use prophets to found and choose one, so I am not sure what the impact of religious disabling might be. I have a couple of religions in my civ and for example won't get pankration from hellenism monastery if my state religion is something else. Few exceptions are for the forest and hill promotions from Druidism buildings and morale promotion from Seti Pir and Confusianism holy building

So you won't get a promotion requiring a religion (like Assistance of An from Mesopotamism) unless it's your state religion...
But what if you have something like the Spiritual trait that empowers even the non-state religions ?
(EDIT : or anything else giving the "Non State Religions still produces base [advanced yields] amounts." tag)

And I'm guessing that if you have Religious Disabling ON, then all the non-state religious buildings get disabled, so you wouldn't get even the promotions NOT requiring a religion (like Guerilla and Woodsman from Druidism and Shamanism) ?

P.S.: So, is Religious Disabling still in beta, is it recommended, or even both (somehow) ?

 

[BlueTemplar]

Well that means it is not working as intended at the moment, because religious disabling is activeted no matter if i check the box or not.

[...]

Edit 2: I went into worldbuilder and activated religious disabling, but newly build units still won't get the promotions from religious buildings (pankration etc). I guess the option is always on now, no matter if you choose it at gamestart or not.

No, I would expect that turning this on would disable even the free non-religious promotions from non-state religion buildings ? (see post just above)

 

[BlueTemplar]

Also relevant :

Yes, efforts were made in Complex Traits to balance for all options, including pure and no negative. No negative does have a few more balance factor issues in spots than most options introduce but they should still be minor enough to just mean a few traits aren't QUITE as valuable as others, perhaps not even to a noticeable extent still.

TBH, not playing with Religious Disabling probably creates the greatest imbalance issues in Complex Traits but that can't be helped because it's either a trait has or doesn't have the ability to adjust the religious building behaviors and there isn't really an in-between on that. It just means that without that option, some traits aren't QUITE as valuable or penalizing as they normally are, but then again that doesn't keep those from being valuable enough to want or want to avoid, so it isn't THAT big a deal.

You don't HAVE to play with Developing Leaders, but the gameplay should be a little smoother in terms of early game balance if you do.

I think it would depend on the Religious Disabling option a lot. Free Religion becomes very important on that option if you want to collect many religions. You can get that ability from the Spirituality trait on Complex Traits as well, which would clear the way for a 'better' civic choice if you feel another IS a better choice.

Beyond that, I'm not sure. They do change a lot and I can't say I've kept up with all the changes necessarily.

There are a few major religions that, if DH does not return, will get included still for sure, and many have been proposed. I have been thinking of waiting until the Ideas Project is implemented before adding much more because the Ideas Project would enable the game to have a lot more religions without them overwhelming the game balance as religious hoarding is a thing that can cause quite a bit of steamroll effect. Yes, we have the Religious Disabling option and it can work to help to limit that effect, but even then if you have certain traits/civics you can still gain access to all religious benefits you've been able to collect everywhere so with each religion included we continue to tilt balance a bit towards strongly favoring the religion hoarding strategies vs other ways to approach the subject - like singular religious devotion and non-religious. The Ideas Project would make religious influences compete in each city for a peace of the pie of the faith of the people there. It would, along with cultures, languages, possibly political ideologies and so on, make religions have to fight one another for influence % and only past a certain threshold, like 20% perhaps, would temples function and be constructable, past a certain threshold would monasteries function and be constructable and so on. New units trained would carry their influences and wherever they are stationed would diffuse those beliefs out into the place they are and the place they are would diffuse their beliefs into the units as well and so on. In this way, you could have an endless number of religions all vying for the light of day where they would be able to have strong influence - somewhere, and would make it perhaps unwise to try to make one holy city with many religions because they would be fighting each other for influence right where they should be the strongest.

Of course, the Ideas project would be optional but we may have to limit the amount of cultures and religions and such in the game if the option isn't on because it will be designed to keep one from having too much benefit from hoarding many of these things into your nation.

 

[BigSmac]

At least at least the game *does* tell you about the promotions :




So you won't get a promotion requiring a religion (like Assistance of An from Mesopotamism) unless it's your state religion...
But what if you have something like the Spiritual trait that empowers even the non-state religions ?
(EDIT : or anything else giving the "Non State Religions still produces base [advanced yields] amounts." tag)

And I'm guessing that if you have Religious Disabling ON, then all the non-state religious buildings get disabled, so you wouldn't get even the promotions NOT requiring a religion (like Guerilla and Woodsman from Druidism and Shamanism) ?

P.S.: So, is Religious Disabling still in beta, is it recommended, or even both (somehow) ?

For me the issue is that before v42, when religious disabling was not active you would get all the different military promotions from the different religious buildings, no matter the state religion. I like stacking religions and then going spiritual and glorious. Gives me a ton of prophets and eternal golden age + all these promotions. I know it's an exploit (sort of) but at immortal difficulty that's allowed I guess.

The thing is that since v42 the promotions no longer work (only from your state religion and Druidism or Shamanism)

Something changed and that broke the option to not use religious disabling.

It also broke the Dojo, Master Dojo and Shaolin Temple wonder

Edit: and the mentioned discussions above are from 2018. Between then and april 2022 it worked like a clock!

 

[BlueTemplar]

Quite a lot of work seems to have been done on promotions in April 2022..?

C2C SVN Changelog

SVN-11299 v41.1.3884 - 2021-02-20 All Changes Merge branch 'master' into release -- Toffer Fixed another reported CTD, was in the same BBAI logging code as the last CTD happened in, just a bit different reason this time, so I commented that log code out. -- Toffer Fixed build availibility...

forums.civfanatics.com

Also, could you try experimenting with

[...]
(EDIT : or anything else giving the "Non State Religions still produces base [advanced yields] amounts." tag)
[...]

(or anything else that seems to be flavored as "all religions are welcome !")

 

[BigSmac]

Quite a lot of work seems to have been done on promotions in April 2022..?

C2C SVN Changelog

SVN-11299 v41.1.3884 - 2021-02-20 All Changes Merge branch 'master' into release -- Toffer Fixed another reported CTD, was in the same BBAI logging code as the last CTD happened in, just a bit different reason this time, so I commented that log code out. -- Toffer Fixed build availibility...

forums.civfanatics.com

Also, could you try experimenting with

(or anything else that seems to be flavored as "all religions are welcome !")

You link to april 2021 and between then and a year later I didnt notice this.

I don't mind if the ruleset is changed (when intended), that's all good. But this seems to be an unexpected side effect of some of the work done this spring. It's not only the religious promotions, it's also the martial arts promotions from Dojo, Master Dojo and Shaolin Temple (+ also linked to religious from Taoism monastery) .

All I say is: it's not working as intended as far as I can see. And that, I mention here; so the ones who are working on that can look into it when they have the time.

Saying that, doesn't mean I can't try experimenting playstyle as you mention. And I will offcourse.

 

[BlueTemplar]

Oops, my bad !

 

[BigSmac]

Oops, my bad !

no problem! I am happy you take the time to also look into this!