Some ideas for balancing and further development

[MorphBer]

I am playing tradition India right now and have 1k income. Tall/tradition allways has less gold because of the non-linear effect of Bank+Caravanesy+Custom House

 

[infidel88]

1) Producing units should be cheaper than buying them (since buying is immediate). Buying units should be cheaper than upgrading them twice (since upgrading give you the unit directly to the frontline, and keep the promotions). As long as this order is preserved (meaning that if you multiply by 4 buying cost, you also multiply by 4 upgrade cost), I have no problems.

I think there is easier solution. Not sure if easier to implement but easier and more logical for sure.
Buying military units is instant, which should represent conscription. This means they are soldiers without any experience. Hence, every unit hardbought with gold starts without XP. This way you can buy yourself an army out of scratch, but this army will die like flies when facing seasoned veterans. Maybe they could get 2xp/turn if fortified in city, up to city XP limit.
At the same time, producing unit is representing somewhat training it in barracks, so they get full XP.

Although, I see a problem of lategame, where you get so many GS, GE, bulbing, policies and everything, that you have to choose whether to build something (that takes AGES like wind plant or something) or building military unit. And if you're swimming in money (good Progress + Industry civ on large map should have easy 4k/turn), this is a no brainer for anyone to hardbuy army, as you're not losing any precious production.

 

[Enginseer]

inb4 cooldown on military units purchases just like diplomatic units or a much stricter purchase requirement(ships requiring seaports and some units requiring train station )

 

[tu_79]

I think there is easier solution. Not sure if easier to implement but easier and more logical for sure.
Buying military units is instant, which should represent conscription. This means they are soldiers without any experience. Hence, every unit hardbought with gold starts without XP. This way you can buy yourself an army out of scratch, but this army will die like flies when facing seasoned veterans. Maybe they could get 2xp/turn if fortified in city, up to city XP limit.
At the same time, producing unit is representing somewhat training it in barracks, so they get full XP.

Although, I see a problem of lategame, where you get so many GS, GE, bulbing, policies and everything, that you have to choose whether to build something (that takes AGES like wind plant or something) or building military unit. And if you're swimming in money (good Progress + Industry civ on large map should have easy 4k/turn), this is a no brainer for anyone to hardbuy army, as you're not losing any precious production.

But this is cool, for sure.

 

[Gazebo]

I think there is easier solution. Not sure if easier to implement but easier and more logical for sure.
Buying military units is instant, which should represent conscription. This means they are soldiers without any experience. Hence, every unit hardbought with gold starts without XP. This way you can buy yourself an army out of scratch, but this army will die like flies when facing seasoned veterans. Maybe they could get 2xp/turn if fortified in city, up to city XP limit.
At the same time, producing unit is representing somewhat training it in barracks, so they get full XP.

Although, I see a problem of lategame, where you get so many GS, GE, bulbing, policies and everything, that you have to choose whether to build something (that takes AGES like wind plant or something) or building military unit. And if you're swimming in money (good Progress + Industry civ on large map should have easy 4k/turn), this is a no brainer for anyone to hardbuy army, as you're not losing any precious production.

Probably not 'zero XP,' but I could see half XP for purchased units as a suitable compromise. It would definitely create more interesting decisions...

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

.....
1. Purchasing costs later in the game are some four times higher than they are now - so you can purchase here and there or every few turns (like in the early game with a GOOD economy), but not more: no magical armies.

Thats the completly wrong way. We raised the cost, but also the yields, more and more. We have to reduce the production cost, and in much stronger way, the gold and science gain. Else we would fire more and more the spiral for higher values, but back to the roots, produce buildings, units, should be the way.

2. The military cap late-game needs to be reduced and also city defence in a corresponding way. The more units an AI can muster of its full force in a small zone, the less your purchasing power affects against it. Also, this would make it harder for the player to deal with wars on multiple fronts.

I think, the military cap is fine, as it is now. The only problem is the AI, which completly ignores unit cap sometimes, crippling itself in early stage of the game. Or simply ignore the conqequences, because THEY CAN ignore the consequences, stomping more and more units in the world, making any effort to conquer a waste of time.

4. Cut back on all the tile bonuses from tech and certain kinds of scaling that occur throughout the game. Small changes are fine, but what helps the game be fundamentally comprehensible and manageable is that *things don't change much*. Every city *shouldn't* be a massive productive culturally scientific rich monster. But right now, it can be. It's boring.

Look, how many tiles your city works in late game. 30 citizen cities working 6 tiles, the rest is GP. And it has still 40-200 food surplus. Not the tiles are the problem, the insane food gain by buildings and effectiveness by GP generation is the problem.

I’m not seeing the gold numbers you all are talking about, at least not with a tradition/fealty play.

My last game (no events mind you), I had more like 400 gpt. Now I’m not the best player, I’m sure I could have optimized more and gotten 500, 700, maybe even 1k. But 3k, no way.

Late game with Nebukadnezar, progress, fealty, industry/science. Villages in nearly every corner, improved by the social policy. Strongly reduced purchase cost with increased value by building purchases. Never hit that often the purchase button.

 

[CrazyG]

Tradition.

The current status of the early trees for me is that I adore progress because early science is game changing and its incredibly flexible down the line.

Authority is great if it works, but playing on my settings (deity continents) you often have access to very few barbarians. I had situations where I wanted to take authority, but had yet to see a single barbarian so took progress instead (culture for techs is basically just free culture, whereas culture for kills requires a high investment to begin working)

Tradition can struggle a little bit too. The big thing I've found as tradition is you don't have an option to get early science, it has to be your 4th policy, and the 4th policy is somewhat late. If there is any issue with the tree, in my experience its this. Combined with things that supported tradition getting nerfed (mastery and various wonders), its certainly now what it used to be, I can agree with your points

 

[Phenomsf]

Tanks and ships should have higher maintenance cost than archers.

 

[tu_79]

The current status of the early trees for me is that I adore progress because early science is game changing and its incredibly flexible down the line.

Authority is great if it works, but playing on my settings (deity continents) you often have access to very few barbarians. I had situations where I wanted to take authority, but had yet to see a single barbarian so took progress instead (culture for techs is basically just free culture, whereas culture for kills requires a high investment to begin working)

Tradition can struggle a little bit too. The big thing I've found as tradition is you don't have an option to get early science, it has to be your 4th policy, and the 4th policy is somewhat late. If there is any issue with the tree, in my experience its this. Combined with things that supported tradition getting nerfed (mastery and various wonders), its certainly now what it used to be, I can agree with your points

I wasn't saying that tradition is weak, though it could be, you are more knowledgeable than me in this regard. What I am uncomfortable with, is that if I start with tradition, artistry is the next logical tree. I need very strong reasons (uniques, exceptional map settings) for not taking artistry after tradition. It happens because both tradition and artistry focus on great people, golden ages and great works. That's too much synergy, in my opinion.
Also, after grabbing both Tradition and Artistry, I find it difficult not to take Freedom.

 

[MorphBer]

Don't you think fealty is viable too if you sre playing a strong religious game?

Order is also a good alternative as Idiology I think.

 

[ilteroi]

re: unit cap, previously the AI would exceed the limit during wartime and build an unlimited number of units. since some are in fact at war most of the time, it could create problems. in the latest version (unreleased) they can exceed it only a little bit even when at war.

 

[Jarula]

Not saying tradition is weak but... It's weak.

No scaling in huge maps it's okish but even when the ai can only get a few cities almost never chooses it.

 

[CrazyG]

I wasn't saying that tradition is weak, though it could be, you are more knowledgeable than me in this regard. What I am uncomfortable with, is that if I start with tradition, artistry is the next logical tree. I need very strong reasons (uniques, exceptional map settings) for not taking artistry after tradition. It happens because both tradition and artistry focus on great people, golden ages and great works. That's too much synergy, in my opinion.
Also, after grabbing both Tradition and Artistry, I find it difficult not to take Freedom.

Weak probably isn't the right word, the issue is its not flexible (autocracy can work OK too, if you have a tech lead just be super aggressive)

The changes to puppet cities, unit supply, mastery, and banks all made tradition less appealing to me

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Probably not 'zero XP,' but I could see half XP for purchased units as a suitable compromise. It would definitely create more interesting decisions...

G

Interesting in what way? If I'm buying a military, it's because I either (1 need units right now, oh god they're at the gates or

(2 My production is precious and I need buildings.

What is the interesting decision?

Heck, I'd argue that money in this game's main value is getting a military up and running; once it's past turn 100 or so, I basically stop hard-building units, just because there are always 10 or so buildings that would be really nice to have, not including national wonders and such.

Edit: Also, this is a direct nerf to authority, because you can only get Authority units with gold.

 

[Gazebo]

Interesting in what way? If I'm buying a military, it's because I either (1 need units right now, oh god they're at the gates or

(2 My production is precious and I need buildings.

What is the interesting decision?

Heck, I'd argue that money in this game's main value is getting a military up and running; once it's past turn 100 or so, I basically stop hard-building units, just because there are always 10 or so buildings that would be really nice to have, not including national wonders and such.

Edit: Also, this is a direct nerf to authority, because you can only get Authority units with gold.

I've already thought of that, and mercenary units will be excluded from the penalty (like faith-bought units).

 

[tu_79]

I've already thought of that, and mercenary units will be excluded from the penalty (like faith-bought units).

What about cs gifts? I usually have my military buildings maxed out in cities close to militaristic cs for this reason.

 

[Deadstarre]

What is the interesting decision?

forgetting the mercenary thing i actually agree with him still, that less xp per unit bought solution by itself doesn't look very interesting to me either it just looks like a nerf to those with booming economy or having/lacking certain policies and beliefs. i dont see how i'll suddenly have a choice about building units either, theres no choice id still be buying units and just living with less XP.

think id rather see more incentives to spend money on buildings. also the current unit maintenance scheme provides a big incentive for wanting to wait until the last minute to just purchase units, but im not sure what the best way to remove that is. some different incentives to hard-build units would be nice though, the stables bonus comes to mind (love those yield modifiers) but its niche and likelihood of being away from a heroic epic keep its usefulness limited

 

[Deadstarre]

basically the more I think of it the nature of the game really necessitates or favors unit purchasing in a lot innate ways. Punishing that behavior definitely wont feel good tho, just need to create some incentives to be doing the opposite.

 

[Stalker0]

What if buildings pokicies gave discounts to building investment but not units?

 

[Infixo]

As a general comment: meddling with units’ xp gains to solve gold related problem that exists before even the unit is created... not the way to go. Especially as there are ideas about the root cause, not just curing post-effects.