Some ideas

[Spoonwood]

I probably won't play a succession game, but I thought I'd post some ideas I had lately that others might find interesting:

1) The scientific soceity. You cannot build religious improvements, only scientific and commercial ones. Your desired victory conditon comes as the 100k. You can only build wonders which fit with the scientific trait *and* Cope's and The Internet. Of course, you'd play as a scientific tribe. The Greeks sound the most fitting.

2) The devout soceity. Same as above, except you can't build scientific improvements... only religious ones. Colosseums would get classified under the religious heading, I suppose since that would give each soceity type three improvements. Again, the 100k condition. Only religious wonders and The Internet (since it triggers GAs for all tribes). Of course, you'd play as a religious tribe. India or Arabia sound like a good fit.

3) A 20k succession game. Can't find many of them around here, can you? Players play turns until they've put in a new great wonder or other cultural improvement.

 

[Nightfire]

Wouldn't a space ship victory make a lot more sense for the scientific variant?

 

[Elephantium]

Or spaceship victory for the devout society. It's all about shaking up expectations

 

[darski]

I think you are making assumptions about both science and religion that are not sound. I cannot speak to other religions but Christianity has never stood in the way of science and Science began as an attempt to understand the wonders of the universe that God created. (Even scientific revisionist history cannot deny this)

The idea that you are scientific should not cause you to deny your spiritual self and your spiritual side should welcome inquiry into the wondrous universe. This dichotomy is a false one and not something to be encouraged.

 

[Optional]

I believe there's a history of tension between religion and science. Religion wouldn't be religion if it wasn't about belief, and scientific development has often been at odds with traditional beliefs.

An example would the ideas about planetary movement that Copernicus and Galilei put forward. That didn't fit in with what the church believed in, and they let Galilei know.
Also modern medical developments aren't always welcomed by religions, who are seeing it as interfering with God.

Not that I have anything to say about the thread topic, of course.

 

[Spoonwood]

I think you are making assumptions about both science and religion that are not sound.

I didn't address actual science or religion. The "scientific" and "religious" traits exist in the game.

I cannot speak to other religions but Christianity has never stood in the way of science and Science began as an attempt to understand the wonders of the universe that God created.

First off, the first part depends on what you mean by "Christianity". Certain strands of Christianity certainly have stood in the way of astonomy and biology... one of them already mentioned... the other one should come as obvious (has anyone seen Creationists gripe that the Theory of Evolution leads to two scientific advances on these forums?). This doesn't mean that all strands of Christianity have done so, but plenty have that no one can really deny it. Second, and make no mistake here, the second part of your statement Darski, actually consists on the incorrect... if not also revionist... historical statement. Archimedes produced scientific information long before Christianity existed such as that density=mass/volume and didn't exactly have a notion of a "God" as a monotheist would think of such. And he's not the only person who did science for some other reason than to "understand the wonders of the universe that God created" before or after Christianity.

 

[Elephantium]

Can we knock off the pointless religious argument, please? This was a useful thread before it turned into religion-bashing.

 

[Rodent]

I think the Ideas are good, But because the mention of a Culture Vic makes my Stomach Turn, I wont ever be playing any of those variants.

Some Ideas of my Own for Discussion-

1) Crowded- You fit a lot of AI on a very Small map.

2) No Government Switching- Game must end in Despotism.

 

[ignas]

1) Human civ can't declare war, going for dom or conquest;
2) building military units just when at war (on pangaea map to make it harder);
3) no city improvements;
4) science slider at 100% all game long;
5) no ships on archipelago map and going for domination ASAP;

 

[Greebley]

I think culture games are less attractive because they run the risk of becoming "waiting for victory". Especially for 100K victory, you want lots of towns which means you kill off the AI early and then wait. You may try it in an SG, but it is not repeated much. For 20K a city limit (OCC or 5CC) helps keep the AI alive and something happening so it works a bit better. Still its not really repeatable.

Actually space often has the same problem and is more rare than other games.

Rodent,
There was an interesting game some of the old crew played. I think it was regent AW with all civs on a small or standard map. It turned out to be not as hard as hoped, but was an interesting at least. (note by old crew, I mean those who played before I became active in SG's which is now a while ago).

I think your other suggestion has also been done.

Ignas,
Some interesting but hard ideas. I wonder if 1) is always possible - I think it would similar to a game where you can't declare war, but once at war you cannot ever accept peace. 5) would have the SG problem that you can't do much for a long while - I believe you have to wait for paratroopers? A vague memory tells me you can't gift cities away to get a unit to jump off island - it will always jump somewhere on the same island even if another island is closer - but I would have to check that to be sure - the fact that I once knew might mean someone has tried it.

--------------

I once tried putting volcanoes on the map so that every city was at risk to see if it would make an interesting SG. Unfortunately no early cities were lost. There may be code that prevents your capitol getting zotted early on.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Rodent, I have done Despo to the end, it can be done, quite challenging. In another thread, I mentioned a "forgotten governments" variant, where you go despotism> feudalism> fascism, which means pop-rushing only, and some research in directions most players never go. Then theres the no resource dependent units game, where any unit needing a resource can't be built, so early, it is Archers/Spears and middle longbows and certain UUs (Keshiks, WEs or Berserks). Later, Guerillas, Artillery and TOW Infantry only. No Tanks, Bombers or Infantry could certainly be a challenge late.

 

[ignas]

1) is always possible - I think it would similar to a game where you can't declare war, but once at war you cannot ever accept peace

Sure it is possible, all You need is to make AI civs to declare on you: for example making them furious and asking to leave territory; or a failed steal attempt; or MA's tied with peace treaties.

5) would have the SG problem that you can't do much for a long while - I believe you have to wait for paratroopers? A vague memory tells me you can't gift cities away to get a unit to jump off island - it will always jump somewhere on the same island even if another island is closer - but I would have to check that to be sure - the fact that I once knew might mean someone has tried it.

This one might take long - probably till Flight (via airports). Or somehow getting towns on the other islands: for example gifting AI's few your own cities, then declaring war and capturing those towns on the same turn. It is likely you will get a town or 2 for peace from AI's (high losses incured to AI). When you have a foothold on an AI's island rush some settlers in gained towns to expand territory, jump Palace there (via abandoning capital). Large force is built at home island, then move all units to some town and gift that town to AI - all your troops will be transferred to the capital. Problem is that there should be a few islands inhabbited by AI's on the map, so you'll need commerce-rich core and use extensive unit rushing in the foothold towns. This should be hard beyond Demigod.

2) Will require extensive prebuild using (towns set to prebuild units, when favourable time comes you make AI to declare on You and switch builds to units);
Doable on Deity.

3) Not that hard, building just units and conquering AI's, ICS'ing captured territory for specialist farms (scientists if you go for fast research, taxmen if you go for rushing and upgrading). The only setback would be slower growth (no granaries), regular units (no barracks), problematic resources (no harbors).
Probably doable on Deity with good circumstances.

4) Hard variant. Needs good build planning not to bankrupt (keep an eye on maintenance and unit costs). Also slow growth and low population early in Despotism as you can't use lux slider. Later on with luxes and better government (irrigating few tiles) should do OK.
Probably doable on Demigod.

 

[Spoonwood]

4) science slider at 100% all game long

Interesting idea. It sounds like a lot of ancient age specialists to me, unless you maybe play it on Cheiftain or Warlord, of course that still would work out wayyyy too easy on those levels.

4) Hard variant. Needs good build planning not to bankrupt (keep an eye on maintenance and unit costs).

This doesn't sound all too hard to me actually, but I can't say I've tried it. Early on, you'll have some tax specialists somewhere. If playing at the right level, you might even manage enough money via trading in the ancient age for some deficit research. Well, I guess that slows down growth, so it might work out harder than I think. Early growth seems the biggest challenge here to me, but more scientist specialists actually can definitely help research in the ancient age. I think it definitely works as doable, especially if playing as scientific, as long as you make it to the industrial age at the right time and you should launch or win diplomatically quite easily, because by then you can leech plenty gpt off the AI that you can make money every turn even with tons of improvements... well on standard sized maps on up. I say possible on Deity... esepcialy Deity archipelago.

 

[ignas]

Interesting idea. It sounds like a lot of ancient age specialists to me, unless you maybe play it on Cheiftain or Warlord, of course that still would work out wayyyy too easy on those levels.

All variants oriented to play on harder levels: Emperor-Sid.
I would try to keep towns small at >4 pop so no need for specialists and delaying growth (1st citizen born content, 2nd and 3rd content because of MP, 4th content if we are lucky to get luxury) in the Ancient Age. Also AA won't last for long and we would get Rep slingshot pretty fast (you can get it pretty easily even on Deity if choosing civ that starts with Alphabet and excluding AI civs that starts with this tech).

This doesn't sound all too hard to me actually, but I can't say I've tried it. Early on, you'll have some tax specialists somewhere. If playing at the right level, you might even manage enough money via trading in the ancient age for some deficit research. Well, I guess that slows down growth, so it might work out harder than I think. Early growth seems the biggest challenge here to me, but more scientist specialists actually can definitely help research in the ancient age. I think it definitely works as doable, especially if playing as scientific, as long as you make it to the industrial age at the right time and you should launch or win diplomatically quite easily, because by then you can leech plenty gpt off the AI that you can make money every turn even with tons of improvements... well on standard sized maps on up. I say possible on Deity... esepcialy Deity archipelago.

The hardest should be the beggining of Republic when unit costs starts to kick in (2gpt for extra unit and by that time you want many workers to develop land fast/join to towns).
Of course later on many trading opportunities arises when fast developing AI's can successfully fund your research.
And I mean not only to win but get also a decent date, say SS victory in 13xx AD's.

Wanna try to play this variant and tell us how it goes?
I will try as Greece vs 7 AI's starting without Alphabet on Standard, Pangaea map, Deity.

 

[Greebley]

I have seen games where the AI will not declare war no matter what you do. When they are big and strong they will declare, but not always when they are small.

So not being able to win is possible, but my guess is that if you play right you will win 99.9% or some such. My point is that making peace could be bad.

As for getting the AI to give towns, I don't think they will always do so if they own an entire continent with all cities well developed, though I could be wrong on that. It would be a variant you would want to try first before playing an SG I think.

 

[ignas]

I have seen games where the AI will not declare war no matter what you do. When they are big and strong they will declare, but not always when they are small.

Sure, but usually on higher levels like Deity human civ is small and lag in unit count so almost 100% AI will declare.

So not being able to win is possible, but my guess is that if you play right you will win 99.9% or some such. My point is that making peace could be bad.

Agree, if you make peace you are not sure when you will be warring again. Everything depends on AI - will they declare war or not.

As for getting the AI to give towns, I don't think they will always do so if they own an entire continent with all cities well developed, though I could be wrong on that.

Sure, big, advanced and bully civ won't give towns that easily. Better not to have that civ in a game so some luck is involved.

 

[Spoonwood]

I would try to keep towns small at >4 pop so no need for specialists and delaying growth (1st citizen born content, 2nd and 3rd content because of MP, 4th content if we are lucky to get luxury) in the Ancient Age.

I certainly don't get your reasoning here. Care to explain? I mean I would think it would work better to use the specialist, as you grow to the size where you need it first. Then, you use it. Then, when your city can grow bigger, you stop using it and you have your city ready to grow bigger.

I would try to keep towns small at >4 pop so no need for specialists and delaying growth (1st citizen born content, 2nd and 3rd content because of MP, 4th content if we are lucky to get luxury) in the Ancient Age.

Once I finish my Deity Sumeria space game I think I might give it a go. You play as Greece, I'll try as Korea.

 

[ignas]

I certainly don't get your reasoning here. Care to explain? I mean I would think it would work better to use the specialist, as you grow to the size where you need it first. Then, you use it. Then, when your city can grow bigger, you stop using it and you have your city ready to grow bigger.

In general you are right.
This might look strange but I think it's not worth using specialists in Despotism, thus delaying growth early on. You need to get as much food as possible ASAP for fast development. When using specialist every turn you lose 2food, better to pop a worker when unhappinness limit is reached (worker=1pop, later worker will be joined to town; by using specialist you'll lose that worker=1pop point).
Different thing is in Republic when there's no despot penalty and you can get as much food as you want with the help of irrigation.

 

[Spoonwood]

Alright, so I played some of the 100% science thing. It really plays with your head in my opinion. I managed the slingshot, even though the AIs got Writing when I had something like 12 turns left on Code of Laws. I didn't build a granary until the middle ages, since that required upkeep. I only had ivory as a luxury until the middle of the middle ages... I think I poorly roaded to the borders. I got an SGL on Theology, which I used for The Sistine Chapel, since I planned on cathedrals. I think Persia had an early middle age golden age (all non-Alphabet scientific tribes and Japan) as they gave me something like 85 gpt for Engineering.

I managed to use The Republic as trade bait via "what's the big picture" and get Monotheism before I got Engineering. I only had three contacts then. But, the Babs attacked shortly before that and took a city, so I only had two trading partners for this. I cash-rushed a cathedral, colosseum, and a temple in Seoul so it could get big. I didn't get the FP (perhaps the biggest problem), because getting most towns in Republic above size 3 required a temple. I got two more luxuries a bit later for 3 luxuries, so that helped. Very little military whatsoever. Early on they helped with happiness. Once I revolted, I lost plenty of cash per turn. I changed some citizens to taxmen at some point to buy the last part of Education, and Banking also I think. I played peacefully as I usually do. Getting infrastucture up seems doubly hard, since towns come in at such a small size (civil engineers at this point might help). Growth does seem like a significant problem.

Maybe it would work better to not play with so many scientific tribes to hopefully sell more tech for gpt (put a bunch of agricultural tribes in?). Instead of playing peacefully, it might also work better to revolt to Monarchy and just bash the AIs in the middle ages. Or just revolt to Monarchy so that your towns can grow a little more. Maybe not hook up iron and just have 2 or 3 cheap warriors per town. If still going for space, this would seem to imply a second revolution probably at the industrial age. I think Tone actually did this in a HoF game with Sumeria (can't tell exactly, but I know he went Monarchy at some point), but 2 revolutions, as well getting up infrastructure in small town seems to imply religious. Maybe if you can trade up to 5 luxuries early on... but I didn't have that here or in some of my other Deity pangea games (if you can, road up the AIs territory of course). So, I think religious a good idea here. It follows that the Babs may work well if you want the scientific trait, India makes a seemingly good choice if you want The Republic slingshot (no resources required for Jumbos also, so bashing in the middle ages seems more viable if you want that), and Spain.

No forbidden palace. I repeat... no forbidden palace. I had a build going on it, but in a size 3 city it would have taken a while and thought I'd put up other infrastructure first so I could grow some. So, maybe going to Monarchy and MGL fishing works as a better strategy.

As a similar sort of variant, you could play a 0% tax game. In other words, the sum of the luxury and science slider must equal 100% the whole game. You'll have to get money or lose buildings or something in the middle ages, but you wouldn't have happiness problems, so you can actually grow your empire. I don't think I'll finish my Korea game. I haven't quite liked this variant, but here's my save for anyone who wants a look, or if anyone wants to try it have at it:

 

[NickyH]

3) Not that hard, building just units and conquering AI's, ICS'ing captured territory for specialist farms (scientists if you go for fast research, taxmen if you go for rushing and upgrading). The only setback would be slower growth (no granaries), regular units (no barracks), problematic resources (no harbors).
Probably doable on Deity with good circumstances.

I once tried this variant in a solo game. It's the quickest domination victory I've ever done, but it sometimes felt frustrating and boring.

I went with tiny map, Pangea, Monarch and the Aztecs. The military trait was very useful, since it's easier to upgrade your regulars to vets.

I got a scientific leader on the second tech i researched, and I used him as a scout with an extra movement point until he was killed by barbarians.

I had terrible problems with culture flips, and if I tried it again, I'd raze and replace instead of keeping cities.

I wrote a bit more about my experience here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=285571

As someone pointed out in that thread, Feudalism would probably be a good choice. I went with Monarchy, which also worked fine, but I believe you could use the troop support that you get in Feudalism. The combination of city spacing and no granaries gives you lots of cities that will never grow above population 6. Whipping to hurry settlers and military would also work well.

Perhaps the most annoying problem was that i couldn't upgrade my military units, since I had no barracks. That made the game more time consuming than it would have been if I could upgrade. Corruption was also a pain because of Monarchy and no FP. That's one of the reasons I think it would be useful to go for Feudalism an hurry units with the whip.