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Some lore questions!

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by exolead, Jul 31, 2011.

  1. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Greetings everyone!
    I am a great fan of FfH 2 and have been playing this mod for quite a while, I have also been visiting these forums for some time (but never really created an account until now :p ).

    So, what I'd like t know is the following:

    1. Einion Logos = Immanuel Logos?
    This may seem obvious for some people, but I really cannot figure out wheter they are the same person, who changed names for some reason, or Immanuel is an ancestor of Einion.

    2.What would happen if Oghma fell?
    If the god which is responsible for knowledge simply sided with Agares for whatever reason, what would happen? Would Erebus enter an "Age of Ignorance" or something like that, were everyone would start an involution process, forgetting things, or something completely different to my speculation?

    3. The Luchuirp: Do they worship Nantosuelta exclusively?
    Or do they share with the Khazad their reverence for Kilmorph, and what is the relationship between the two civilizations, if any?
    ____
    Anyway, thanks in advance for providing answers to these questions :D
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Immanuel Logos was a Priest-King who ruled in the name of Sirona before abandoning his rank and privilege in order to take in the orphans of the Godswar, regardless of their religious or ethnic background. He founded the Order of the Elohim, a holy order of monks around which the nation of the Elohim eventually grew. Immanuel Logos almost certainly died in the Age of Dragons, long before the gods convened at the Seven Pines to negotiate The Compact. (We know that the Elohim were already well established and universally respected by that time, and I don't think that would have happened during the lifetime of its founder. If Immanuel Logos were still alive at the time it seems likely that the gods would have entrusted the Godslayer to him instead of handing it over to Finner.) After signing the compact but before leaving Erebus, Sucellus entrusted the Elohim with the duty to take care of all all his holy sites. (I tend to think that if Immanuel was still around they might have turned down that mission to remain focused on caring for human welfare.) Originally Logos was just a name, but in time it came to be used as a title (like the real world name turned title of Caesar). The leader of the order of monks has been called the Logos for thousand of years. Einion Logos is but the most recent in a long line of leaders to take the title. There is no reason to presume that Einion is related to Immanuel Logos at all. I believe Kael said they are unrelated, at that Einion was not born until early in the Age of Rebirth.


    It is hard to say for certain, but I tend to think that the fallen form of a sphere is quite distinct from its absence. While Oghma is called the God of Knowledge or of Metamagic, I tend to think that a better title would be God of Memory. Oghma presides over knowledge of the past, whereas Mammon originally presided over knowledge of the future. Mammon's fall into Greed came from a desire not merely to know the future, but to defend against and control it. Oghma's fall might entail the desire to remember things as being certain ways rather than striving for objective recollection. I imagine that his fall might encourage us to deny our own ignorance and cling firmly to our revisionist interpretations of history. Actually, while Oghma himself has not fallen, a large proportion of his angels have. The Gowlers or "Past Men" who still serve Oghma have the power to alter memories and can be very deceptive when their missions demand it, but those who have defected Mammon relish the opportunity to trick good people into feuds with each other. Oghma is fighting a losing war against Mammon, and has been forced to erase the memories of most of the denizens of his domain in order to protect a secret he believes is too great for any other god to be allowed to know.


    The Luchuirp still worship Kilmorph primarily, and almost exclusively. Nantosuelta does not have or desire any organized religion. Her sphere is antithetical to the concept of deriving worth or authority from rank in a hierarchical institution. She is concerned with helping individuals value other individuals for their intrinsic properties. She is concerned with helping both people and things best exemplify the virtues which define them, in order to become what they are truly meant to be. As the dwarves were created by Kilmorph, Nantosuelta considers the Earthmother to know better what virtues the Luchuirp should exemplify and concerns herself with letting them to so to the best of their ability.

    I actually don't know much about the relationship between the two dwarven civs. I believe that they are separated by great distances and have had very little contact. I imagine that the Luchuirp have a better opinion of the Khazad than vice versa. The Luchuirp are a very open civilization that will trade with anyone. The Khazad do not trust outsiders. The Luchuirp have adopted the human language, whereas the Khazad considers maintaining their traditional dialect (especially in its written form, runes that are never to be read visually but only like braille) to be very important. The Khazad consider it disgraceful to be exiled to the surface, whereas the Luchuirp free chose to live above ground. However, when the Age of Ice destroyed most of the Open-Skyers Kilmorph herself is said to have rescued the Luchuirp tribe by teaching them how to dig again. While they desire to have open cities again, they have chosen not to entirely abandon the underdark again.
     
  3. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Thank you very much for your answers, MC! :D
     
  4. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I have another question : Why does Mammon so powerful?

    I mean, his archangel whispering nightmare to Danalin, resulting in the creation of Hemah, Overlords, and the OO religion. That would be a very great feat, eventhough Danalin might resist if only he wasn't comatose. But still, this is only his archangel doing things.

    And then, Mammon attack Oghma and looks like going to win soon.

    And then, Mammon's personal cult, the Steward, was prevalent in almost culture and nations. I read somewhere that Bannor high priest was being corrupted (suspectedly) by the Stewards.

    Mammon is one busy god, and I don't know whether there is god/goddess who fight against him.
     
  5. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    A lot of Mammon's power comes from the fact that he has more worshipers than any other god. Almost none of his worshipers realize that they serve him; all those who believe they serve only their own personal interests are in fact his ignorant slaves. Greed is the most common form of evil among humans, and a "root of all kinds of evils" indeed. Although Mulcarn's hell receives the largest influx of departed human souls, most of those don't have what it takes to progress further along the assembly line that turns them into more powerful demons. (In fact, most of those in Mulcarn's hell really don't belong in hell at all. The evil gods like to pool their claims together in order to claim souls that really should go to Arawn.) Mammon's hell receives the majority of the souls corrupt and ambitious enough to become demon lords. Many powerful demons, including Messhabber of Dis, choose to return to his city and his service. Mardero and his brothers are cambions most likely sired by Hastur himself; these powerful demonic entities carry just enough human blood in order to be exempt from the restrictions of The Compact. (In the original source Lita the Witch was actually an angel of Oghma, making Mardero's kindred evil half-angels able to withstand the memory-erasing mist that fills Oghma's vault and thus able to maintain their allegiance to Mammon and continue the war to conquer the vault and capture its great secrets.)


    Mammon was always one of the most intelligent gods. Before the fall, the other gods left their most important decisions up to him, as it was his unique ability to foresee the outcome of any decision. His corruption robbed him of this perfect foresight, but may not have been so complete as to remove all traces of prescience from him. He remains a true evil genius and a key figure in formulating the machinations of hell. As mind and force are actually closely related spheres, it would not surprise me if Mammon himself wrote large portions of The Compact and included enough loopholes to leave him less restricted than any other god. The agreement that the gods can claim ownership of the souls of those who favored their domains was likely his idea.


    Considering that his direct opposite, Oghma, is not doing very well, Sirona is probably the best deity to oppose Mammon. Of course, she has her work cut out for her, as her direct opposite, Aeron, is also very powerful and on many fronts she is the only one opposing all the evil gods combined. No god other than Sirona is willing to take the fight into hell itself in hopes of redeeming the most evil demons. (Basium is willing to go to hell to fight, but he is not a god and invading hostile lands to destroy is rather different than going there to subvert and recruit.) Many angels of mercy actually dwell in the Iron City of Dis so that they can show fallen souls the way out of hell. They are not wildly successful, but if it weren't for them there would be little reason for Esus to have made his hell into a trap for such would be repenters.
     
  6. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Wow! Thanks, MC! I guess this is kind of ironic, to have Sirona (every gods "little sister") as the one who really fight the evil gods.
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    True, but she is not exactly "fighting" in the traditional, obvious sense that most of the gods prefer. She prefers persuasion over violence. She is actually very much like Agares in this regard; he corrupts good into becoming evil, and she "corrupts" evil into returning to good. The spheres of Spirit and Hope were in fact very closely aligned before Hope fell into Despair, and Agares and Sirona were once the closest of friends. Sirona firmly believes that even Agares can and will eventually be redeemed. Every other god (including Agares himself) believes that this is pure folly. (I would not be quick to call the Goddess of Wisdom a fool.)

    Lugus also welcomes the wicked (including demons) who repent, but he does so more cautiously.

    Lugus reveals just how wicked we are so guilt can convict us to correct our faults. He offers forgiveness once we have truly repented of their sins. Sirona is willing to overlook our faults so that we don't wallow in self loathing but can see and nourish that good which remains in us. She offers forgiveness to those still living in sin in order to draw them to repentance. They are both very much good, but Lugus is hash while Sirona is gentle. Many gods, especially Junil, fear that Sirona is being tricked into welcoming wolves in sheep's clothing, demons who only feign repentance in order to infiltrate her vault and overthrow her. Some fear this will lead to her fall, yet she seems to remain the least corrupted of all deities.
     
  8. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Another questions, I hope you don't mind to answer them, MC :)

    First, while the evil gods are linked together (their hells are parts of one big demon-processing system), why do the good gods are stood a part from each other? Is this one of Dimension's corruption effect? Since the good gods don't have Dimension, they can not "connect" between them?

    Second, how big are the chance of Condantis to awaken Danalin? Does she have a chance to stood against Hastur? What will the new religion looks like, and maybe what is the name?
     
  9. Acrux

    Acrux Chieftain

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    I've got a few as well:

    What did Oghma find out that he's keeping secret? I know Kael said that he never really decided, but that it had something to do with the One. Any thoughts?

    What are the complete terms of the Compact (as far as we know)? I know it includes how much influence the gods can have based on worshippers. It apparently includes which gods get particular souls. Anything else?

    Gameplay-wise an issue that doesn't seem to fit with lore: Why are we able to build the Alter of the Luonnatar? If the Luonnatar are persecuted throughout the vast majority of societies, why would they allow/tolerate stories about the Alter as being where the one touched down?
     
  10. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Hehe, I personally think that Heaven's Resident Lawyer, that is, Junil, should have been responsible of the writing of the Compact; I remember reading a post by Kael saying something about nobody being able to deceive Esus, or no one capable of creating a legal instrument more perfect than the laws of Junil. That would have guaranteed no loopholes at all.
    __
    Now, I really don't want to pester MC with my incessant questinos, but, I have another set of them :p
    Here it goes:
    1- Is Mulcarn totally vanquished? That is, has his soul disappeared entirely, or has he gone on to play Somnium with Arawn on the Underworld?


    2- About what approximate year of the Age of Rebirth is Auric Ulvin defeated?


    3- So far; has Laroth succeeded in his revolt against Arawn? I really don't want to spoil anybody, but having finished the last scenario of Ff2 recently, I remember reading the epilogue and well, has he, as far as the "Official Story" goes, suceeded, or is he still struggling? Can a human being really defeat a god, and in his very own vault? That would be sooo lame(specially considering that Arawn is my favourite god and that I like to consider him as actually, a pretty powerful and rather bad-ass God if it comes to battle).
    Oh and since it is related to him, when you are playing somnium and you get the Death card, the woman featured on it, is she Gyra?
    ____

    That's it, no further questions, promise :p
     
  11. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    But the lore forum hasn't been this interesting in years!
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The good gods don't really have a leader (or even a figurehead) to unite them in a single plan of action, and have some very different ideas of how to guide humanity to enlightenment. They care a great deal about their own vaults, whereas most of the evil gods (Esus and Mammon are exceptions) don't care about them much beyond their utility in the larger plan. The fact that Ceridwen is against would probably make it rather difficult to merge the heavens into a great machine if they desired one anyway.


    I can't really say whether Condatis has a chance of waking Danalin. I suspect that if the god does not want to wake up he will not be awakened. I don't think that waking him is as much her goal as is keeping Hastur away in order for his dreams to be less harmful. Perhaps if the goal is actually waking it it would be best to focus on Hemah.

    I can tell you how Danalin's religion was (at least as practiced in the Illian village where Auric Ulvin grew up), but not if it would remain the same after all he has gone through. It was a very sensible faith, by no means prone to fanaticism. While its members might still pray for miracles, they were strongly encouraged to take care of themselves without divine intervention. They were encouraged to be laid back and not be too disturbed by the hardships of life. It encouraged hard work like the Runes of Kilmorph, but wasn't judgmental of those who were content with a less industrious life. Its temples often had sea- or lake-monsters guarding them, and an artifact inside capable of directing these creature's actions in case the temple needs defending.


    I don't know what the secret Oghma holds is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was something that used to be widely known. If Oghma's angels can alter and erase the memories of men, Oghma himself can likely make the gods themselves forget. I imagine that the evil gods hope and suspect that the secret is a way that they can regain the ability to create ex nihilo, but I doubt that is really it. It seems more likely to be a prophesy about the time, circumstances, or manner of The One's return, and what could stop possibly stop, hasten, or delay this.

    (In Kael's original D&D campaign, I believe the secret was that The One even existed. When his player characters' finally uncovered a secret library that confirmed everything the Luonnatar has been preaching, they still didn't believe it.)


    The Compact is a very intricate agreement, and I believe that Kael once said it is something that really cannot be expressed in any human language. It is closer to the laws of nature than to a written agreement. The Compact was originally Cassiel's idea, but he abhors the results. The most offensive portions are those that allow them to continue the war in Creation using humans (and other intelligent beings) as proxies and those allowing the gods to claim ownership over the souls of those who served their precepts in life. It treats intelligent beings with free will not as equals, children, or even pets to be cared for, but as tool from which to extract power. There are virtually no limits on what a god may to for or to those whom he owns, so long as they respect the "property" of their peers. Gods may not enter creation, but their angels and demons still can so long as they limit their supernatural powers to directly effecting only those their masters own. Mortals are completely free to abuse their fellow men in the name of their beliefs, and may be ordered and threatened into doing so. Angels to choose to fall are free to do so, becoming like mortals.



    The mechanics of the Altar of the Luonnatar really don't fit very well with the lore. It probably should be a unique feature, perhaps upgraded through a series of rituals only available to those without a state religion.



    Lawyers as we know them don't have much to do with the sphere of law. Junil would make a horrible lawyer. The sphere of law pertains to oaths, obedience, and justice. It does not look favorably on creative interpretations of the law or precedents. Good attorneys are really closer to the spheres of Force, and corrupt ones closer to Mind. Force is about balance between opposing forces. It is about compromise, negotiating agreements, forming contracts, and enforcing them. Dadga is the author of The Compact, although he included provisions at the request of each of the gods. The unyielding, loophole-less laws recommended by Junil would be totally unacceptable to most of the gods. Junil only reluctantly agreed to the Compact, and now regrets that he swore to protect it. I imagine that the provision that gods own their followers was likely created by Mammon, since his fallen sphere creates in him an overwhelming desire to possess property of all sorts. Mammon probably had the foresight to convene the evil gods ahead of time to formulate a plan for the negotiations, perhaps even an early draft that the seven of them would insist be the basis for the final document. His negotiation must have been fantastic, as the evil gods were very close to loosing the war at the time the truce was called and yet were given a deal that favored their interests.


    Mulcarn's soul is nowhere to be found in any universe accessible to any god of Erebus. He is most certainly not in Arawn's Netherworld. Whether he has completely ceased to exist or left to a world known only to The One is not knowable. However, The One surely has the power to restore him if that is His wish.

    It should however be noted that Mulcarn's personality is almost inextricable from the Precept of Ice, which continues to exist and possess not only power but a will of its own. (If I could choose my own terminology I'd call call the remaining power and will as the Numen of Winter.) Also, the breath that Mulcarn breathed into Barnaxus, which was later absorbed by Auric, may contain some portion of the late god's spirit. This may have been sent to the underworld, but not until Auric was slain by the Netherblade.

    The time of Auric's demise is hard to place. (Actually, most of the chronology of the Age of Rebirth seems rather unworkable. Things that really should have happened centuries and generations apart were compressed together for the sake of the scenarios.) Is has been stated that Auric was born a little less than one year after the start of the Age of Rebirth, and that he was 16 years old when his home village of Brigdarrow was destroyed. I would estimate that it took close to a decade after this for him to take command of the Illian nation, and a few more decades after that to ascend. By the time of his defeat he at least appeared to be elderly, although whether that means 60 or 160 I could not say. It could also be that the burden of power aged him prematurely, or that that his appearance in the netherworld was based on how he came to see himself due to bearing a precept that best fits a curmudgeon.


    It is hard to say how successful Laroth has been. Arawn does not think the threat is serious enough to require taking any action, although Gyra is worried about it. Kael has stated that a mortal certainly could rise to godhood. Humans are the physical and spiritual descendents of Nemed, and as such possess a portion of the divine spark that The One gave to the god. Cernunnos never possessed the divine spark, yet was able to ascend to godhood. A deified human would be greater than the current god of nature. Of course, Cernunnos did no wrest his godhood away from Sucellus by force, but was given it willingly as a gift. Becoming a god by defeating a god would be unprecedented. It seems unlikely to happen unless Laroth could get a hold of The Godslayer, and even that likely would not work unless Arawn could be made to violate some restriction of The Compact first. Considering how unwilling Arawn is to get involved in the affairs of the living, it seems unlikely that he would do that willingly.

    The thought just came to mind that Laroth might intend to use the souls harvested by the Netherblade to create its opposite, a weapon that would bind souls from the netherworld to Erebus itself. If this could be used to force Arawn to enter Erebus then the Godslayer could kill him and his precept would seek a new master. Actually, the godslayer might be unnecessary, as the Ascended Auric seems not to have brought the power of his precept with him when his spirit was ripped form his body and bound to Laroth's realm. (At least, his personality in the netherworld seems free from the insane domination of there sphere.)

    We should probably also keep in mind the existence of the Opalis Mortis. This gem of creation was stolen by the mortal Tuoni, and is now hidden somewhere in Erebus. It is linked to an infinite plain of death mana and can provide a power source greater than that controlled by the god. Perhaps controlling this gem would make one a de facto god without needing to take the authority from Arawn. At the very least, if I were Laroth I would be worried that if someone else controls the gem once his plan to vanquish Arawn is enacted that the precept of death would prefer that rival over himself.
     
  13. LockerStalker

    LockerStalker Chieftain

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    What happens when the archangels stop... archangel-ing? E.g. Cernunnos, Cassiel, Basium etc. Are new archangels appointed? Does Cernunnos have an archangel?
    Also, what's the connection between the Orcs and the Bannor?
     
  14. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Well, in that case I'll forswear my promise xD
    ___

    1- Who is Muirin? Just, who, or what the heck is it? I have seen him on the civilopedia and as an available unit on the WorldEditor, but so far I have not found him in any of my games. Maybe I should improve my naval strategy (?)

    2- Aren't all "Gods" (with the obvious exception of Cernunnos) equal in power? I mean, they all created their archangels (except Agares) and their very own worlds, and all of them contributed to the creation of Erebus and humankind, yet still, Mulcarn manages to defeat that loser Succellus, and on Erebus, which, I beleive should be something like a neutral ground; how is this even possible? (I'm still lamenting Mulcarn's departure from history, he was quite awesome)

    Thanks in advance ^^
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    No new archangel has been created since the Age of Dragons.

    Arawn created two Archangels, since he was at the time god of both Life and Death. Gyra remained loyal to her master. Arawn wasn't really an active enough deity to need two archangels, and only controls the precept of death now anyway.

    Nemed never made any angels. He very well might have made his own vault and denizens thereof, but true angels were not created until the Godswar.

    It was Arawn that created Basium and most likely other angels of life under his command. Some of these may now serve Sucellus, but I suspect that many remain loyal to their renegade commander. Basium despises Sucellus, thinking he is a weakling who in no way deserve the honor of godhood, especially since he himself had been petitioning Arawn to give him this power for ages. Whereas most good gods claim the souls of their followers in order to turn them into angels, the only souls we know that Sucellus have claimed where instead resurrected to continue to serve him in life. This may mean that Sucellus surely has the smallest and weakest army of angels.

    Sucellus might now control Nemed's old vault, but after his resurrection he is actually spoken of as dwelling in incorporeal form in Erebus itself. It seems that The Compact does not prevent this because he was granted an exception to freely enter Erebus to combat Mulcarn's invasion. This might make Sucellus personally more powerful in Erebus than are his peers, but might not fully make up for his weaker angelic hosts.


    Cernunnos may well have some powerful and greatly trusted lieutenants, but he has not assigned any official archangel.


    While Agares may well have spent some of his power in order to copy Cernunnos and create Hyborem, he never created any other angel or beast. He has by far the largest army and arsenal, but not one servant or tool that was not originally created by another god and corrupted into his service. He created Nyx after losing the power of Creation ex nihilo, but before sharing the gems of creation with his brethren. He does not seem to have exhausted power creating anything since then. As such he is probably the most power of the gods. In general though, which gods is more powerful probably depends heavily on the purpose to which the power is being used.


    Mulcarn had already established control over most of Erebus before Sucellus arrived to challenge him. He also brought his archangel and several of his most powerful pets with him to fight Sucellus. He detracted Sucellus by having him fight Taranis, whose power and curse is the total inability to change. Sucellus's power of nature allows for him to cause only gradual changes, not the total instant destruction required against someone who cannot be injured bit by bit. (Bhall probably could have destroyed Taranis much more easily, but she had fallen.) Taranis was probably no real threat to Sucellus but the god was not smart enough to realize that he should just let him be and focus on the real danger that was sneaking up behind him. In the meantime, Sucellus's own archangel Cernunnos was too concerned with protecting the Ljosalfar to fight on the offense. (He may have been discouraged from a more active role because he learned a lesson from the loss he experienced when he defied his master's orders and assaulted Agares in his own vault.)


    Muirin is but another servant of The Burnt Priest. He is much like Saverous, but I believe he was a goblin originally. He is defeated in the Fall of Cuantine scenario, but very little is revealed about him.


    The Orcs are the descendents of the men who worshiped Bhall before her fall, and were corrupted along with her. Bhall was the most widely worshiped deity in Erebus just before her fall, so orcs come from many nations of men. (Goblins are most likely elves, or possibly dwarves, who also worshiped Bhall and were corrupted.) Not everyone who honored Bhall turned evil along with her, but the many who did were drive into a murderous rage against those whose loyalty remained with her old alignment rather than her personage. The Clan of Embers itself is the remainder of of the Old Bannor Empire, the men most devoted to Bhall and closest to the seat of her religion's power. The Bannor of the Age of Rebirth are the descendants of those Bannor who were inside the palace and temple complex of Bhall, which was physically dragged into Hell itself when she fell. Many who were dragged into hell were corrupted, either immediately or through the course of suffering trials and temptations, but a remnant remained holy and with the help of Sabathiel managed to fight their way to freedom. Before her fall, Bhall and Junil were the closest of allies. Junil had a temple (or at least a significant shrine) within the larger complex devoted to Bhall and her angels. Sabathiel did not just come of his own volition, he was sent in answer to prayers offered there. The Bannor he protected were almost all from the nobility and clergy of the ancient Bannor, whereas the Clan come from the bulk of the population. That is not to say that none of the orcs were high born, however. If I recall correctly Rantine is a descendent of the Old Bannor High Priestess, and his family continued to guard the Matron Essendi (the high priestess's sceptre, and Bhall's most holy artifact) until Orthus stole it and hafted it to his axe. In Kael's D&D game, Orthus was a good friend of the last king of the holy city of Braduk.
     
  16. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    When you play with the Bannor, the capital is called Torrolerial; was this the site of the temple which fell with Bhall, or is just a posterior creation? Is the orc capital Braduk the ancient center of the Old Bannor?
    (Of course I find the idea of transporting a city from Hell to Erebus rather hard, but then again, we have the infernals... and their capital, Dis)
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Braduk was the capital city of the Old Bannor empire, and probably the largest city in the world at the time. It was a sprawling metropolis built around the sacred inner city, containing Bhall's great temple complex and slightly less impressive palace complex of the royal house of NuValle. I believe that this was an acropolis, isolated from secular portions of the city by high walls and elevated on a hill steep enough to allow the holy light of eternal flame at the heart of the temple to be seen from miles away. When Bhall fell from heaven to hell through Erebus, she impacted the holy of holies of her greatest temple. She dragged the entire inner city down with her, replacing a steep hill with a seemingly bottomless crater. The rest of the city of Braduk and its surrounding suburbs remained mostly intact and continued to be inhabited by those Bannor that became the Orcs of the Clan of Embers.



    When the Bannor emerged from Hell, their exist was at the same place as their entrance. They emerged from the eternal flames within the crater that replaced the acropolis as the heart of the city. Immediately they were set upon by Orthus and his band. Capria took an orc child hostage to negotiate for their freedom, but Orthus made it clear that he could not be manipulated like that by killing the orc himself. The Bannor had to fight their way out of their old home, and suffered many casualties on the way. The first to die was Capria's beloved little sister. Capria herself managed to stab her sword straight through Orthus's abdomen, but chose not to take the time to kill him so that she could carry her sister's body away for a decent burial.


    To the best of my knowledge no modern Bannor city was a settlement of any importance in their old empire. The escapees from hell had no time to search out old holy places when they were on the run for their lives. I'm not sure why, but I always sort of assumed that Tor was the Bannor word for a military encampment.
     
  18. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    All right, just two more chronological references to understand the whole story:
    Was Capria some sort of priestess of Bhall, or just a common Old Bannor girl when her goddess fell or was she born in Hell (something I think unlikely)?
    I assume that the Old Bannor empire comes after Patria, but before the Age of Ice, right? What era are we talking about?
    And what was the original capital of Patria? (Just to clear Braduk from the list, which I'm assuming it's not)
    -[My lucky guess would be the site of which is now Cevedes, the site where the Amurites were led by Kylorin during the age of Ice, but well, you'll tell me if I guessed or not :p]-
     
  19. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Capria was a young child when Bhall fell. She was not a priestess or a commoner but a member of one of Braduk's most noble families. (She was not herself a NuValle, but could have been a second or third cousin of the king and is likely the closest tie that the modern Bannor have to the royal line of their predecessors.) I believe she spent most of her early life in the courts of King Khorde NuValle, but was in the temple of Bhall during the fall.

    I memory serves, shortly before the fall of Bhall Donal Lugh was severely wounded in battle and fell into a coma so deep that he was assumed to be dead. As he had been a national hero, he was given a state funeral in the temple of Bhall. I believe Capria and her family were in the temple at the time to pay him their respects. When Bhall fell, Donal startled the attendees half to death by waking up and grabbing the funeral bier on which he had been placed to use it as a shield defending them against the attacks of the mad priests. I believe that he led them to a shrine of Junil and offered the prayers that resulted in Sabathiel appearing to lead them through the dangers of hell.

    When in hell the Bannor did not have physical bodies. Their spiritual bodies originally matched the physical forms they had in life, but they aged very differently. In hell, time is irrelevant to aging and one's psychological state is very important. Capria quickly grew from a fragile prepubescent girl into a strong young woman through exercising strict discipline. (The fact that she had to act as the only mother figure for her little sister Sabra also required that she mature quickly.) She did not allow any of the moral failings that led so many of her fellow sojourners to decay into the frailty of old age and fall prey to the demons that constantly pursued them. Most of those who survived the fall into hell did not survive their stay there, but those that did remained young and strong for centuries. When they returned to Erebus they regained physical bodies that where like their spiritual forms in hell, which for most of them meant youthful and at the peak of physical fitness.

    (I do not think it is possible to have children in hell. I know that it is impossible to have children in Arawn's Netherworld, and strongly suspect that is also the case for most if not all of the gods' vaults. Amathaon's seems like the most likely exception, as conception and childbirth are very much parts of the creation sphere. Actually, now that I think of it, Esus's hell is inhabited almost entirely by living beings and is made to be nearly indistinguishable from Erebus, so childbirth might be possible there too.)


    The Old Bannor Empire is one of the Nine Human Nations that arose from factions in the Patrian Civil War. This was still in the Age of Magic, but after Kylorin had repented of his evil ways and turned against his apprentices. The others were the Elohim, the Malakim, the Lanun, the Hippus, the Grigori, the Balseraphs, the Illians, and the Calabim. At one point the Kuriotates were counted among them, but I convinced Kael that it would better fit the meaning of the Creation sphere for the Kuriotates to be the youngest of all the nations of Erebus. I also tried to convince him that it would be better for most of the factions to be peoples that did not exist yet and to have most nations not form until much more recently, but he didn't want to have to come up with new lore for a bunch of extinct civilizations. Still, it is probably important to remember that these factions are not identical to their modern counterparts. The modern Calabim are explicitly described as being descended from scattered tribes of humans that used the superior hunting skills of the vampires Alexis and Flauros to survive the Age of Ice, not realizing that they would slowly be transformed into mere cattle. The most ancient vampires may have started several civilizations over the course of history and then exterminated them all when it seemed that their secrets were about to be exposed. The Elohim actually date back to the Age of Dragons and although they were assimilated into Patria managed to outlive it. As they focused on preserving holy sites, their kingdom was probably non-contiguous pockets spread across Erebus. The Hippus and Lanun civilizations were also older than Patria, and were arguably never really part of it. Their leaders were forced to swear fealty to Kylorin, but Patria could not exert much control over them beyond collecting the occasional tribute. For the most part the Lanun served a buffer between the human empire and the Aifons, and the Hippus as a buffer against the Dwarves. Cassiel was a greatly respected philosopher in Patria, and may have taken with him a good chunk of the core empire. The Malakim where those who wandered or were driven into distant deserts and were probably considered unimportant. The Illians were much the same, but with frozen wastelands. It is not clear whether Perpentach was imprisoned before or after ruling the Balseraphs of the Age of Magic. Nikis-Knight prefers to think that he escaped from the Tower of Eyes relatively quickly and founded his modern nation before the Age of Ice. I prefer to think that the modern nation is fairly young, and historians just happen to use the name name for the very different realm that he ruled before Kylorin broke down the mental barriers that were keeping his multiple personalities at bay. If it is as I prefer, then the Balseraphs of that age were the direct descendents of Patria. It would be an arcane empire ruled by Kylorin's most powerful pupil and adopted son, the heir apparent Perpentach the Caswallawn whose power denied his subjects even the ability to think disloyal thoughts. The Bannor were one of the last Patrian factions to emerge, but they proved to be the most successful in fighting against evil sorcerers. (The fact that there still were powerful evil sorcerers among their enemies seems to fit well with my theory of the Balseraphs, and the fact that Bal-Seraphs should literally mean the evil equivalent of Bhall's great angels of fire may indicate that the name emerged to emphasize their antagonism to the Bannor.) At the time the holy flames of Bhall were harmless to the innocent and lethal to the wicked, making it the perfect judge, jury, and executioner. The Banner crusade wielded it and washed over Erebus like a wildfire, exterminating their arcane foes. By the time of Bhall's fall they had very nearly crushed their enemies and seemed to be well on their way to reuniting humanity under a single rule.


    It is hard to say where the Patrian capital was, but Kael has said that it is not in Amurite lands. The Amurites see themselves as the heirs of the Patrians because they were led by Kylorin, but their claim to this heritage is not really any stronger than that of the other human nations. The Amurites were just another bastard tribe formed from refugees from the different nations that fell when Mulcarn rose. Kylorin only joined them because his wife happened to be reborn among them during the generation when Nentosuelta convinced him to take up his greatest quest. She had already collected 6 of the 7 pieces of the body of her beloved Sucellus, but needed help retrieving his heart. As the heart of Sucellus was buried within Mulcarn's palace in what would later become Letum Frigus, retrieving it required reforging the Godslayer and vanquishing the God of Winter.

    (This is a huge stretch, but I personally prefer to believe that once Kylorin's quest was done he chose to abandon the Amurites in order to live among the Illians he just defeated. I like to think that he discovered Epona reincarnated as an Illian girl by the name of Harna living in a small village known as Brigdarrow. He proceeded to live out his greatest fantasy, an ordinary life with the woman he loves on a simple farm outside of town. After years that required polygamy, he would long for the Illian custom of monogamous marriage that can never be ended, even by death. Even if he had not longed for anonymity, the animosity that the Illians would surely harbor towards his person would require that he use a pseudonym and hide his magic even from his own family. The pseudonym he chose was Joshua Ulvin, and the son he refused to train in matters arcane was Auric, future God of Winter. As the only child of Kylorin and Eve/Epona/Harna not trained in the proper use of magic from infancy, Auric had tremendous magical talent but not the teaching he would need to be able to resist being dominated by the spell sphere that longed for a new master. Kylorin would blame himself for failing his son, especially when he realized the harm he caused by leaving to search for his wife's next incarnation before checking to see if his son survived the massacre by Gosea's goblin mercenaries. It is with deep regret that he informs a player in the game of the Godslayer's location, as he knows that the world cannot survive if Auric Ascended is not stopped yet he cannot bring himself to personally murder his own son.)


    Originally, Kael claimed that the Patrians called themselves Amurites and that the modern Amurites took up their name to honor their predecessors. However, he later changed his mind about this, thinking it would be too confusing for those new to the mod. I personally like to think that Amur is the name of the city-state that Kylorin inherited and ruled prior to uniting humanity into one nation, and the ancient Amurites were his people before there were any Patrians. He may have later built a new capital better suited for the administration of his vast domain, and chosen to call his kingdom simply "the Fatherland" in order to reduce regional strife. After repenting of his evil ways Kylorin likely found the idea of recreating Patria to be extremely distasteful, and may have chosen to call his new tribe the Amurites to honor the simpler times when he was still a good man rather than a monster.


    When Dain the Caswallawn went on his quest to find a Cave of Trials from the Patrian era, the only one he could locate was in Balseraph lands. It was is a rural area far from any important Balseraph city, but it still might lend support to the idea that Patria was centered in the lands now ruled by Perpentach. I don't have proof of this, but I personally like to think that the Palus (or Tower of Eyes) is the last remaining tower of the palace from which Kylorin ruled his Patrian Empire. It might even be the very tower from which he tried to throw himself to commit suicide before Ceridwen stopped him and offered her dark pact. By the time it became Perpentach's prison we know that it was a lonely ruin deep in a wasteland far from human civilization. Perhaps it was just a lookout tower built to keep watch over a wilderness in the first place, but I prefer to think that the wasteland surrounding it was the unnatural result of far too much magic destroying what used to be the very heart of human civilization.
     
  20. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    Is it "prefer to believe" or "Kael wrote this but I can't say so"? ;) Speaking of which, do you have any idea if Kael is still working on/planning to publish Ashes of Brigdarrow?
     

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