Some newbie questions

Brain

Lost in thought
Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Messages
522
Location
Warsaw, Poland
Hello.

I'm one of those folks who didn't like Civ 4 at first and went back to Civ 3. Recently, I gave Civ 4 another chance and I got a much better impression of it. Anyway, I have some basic strategy questions:

1) I find war to be extremely difficult in this game. The attacker needs to have a HUGE advantage in order to just dream of considering initiating a war. I have a rather imperialistic warmongering approach and I'd prefer a somewhat shorter build-up time and higher pay off from my wars. I mean, I don't want to wait hundreds of turns and build a huge army just to conquer two lousy backwater cities. Any tips?

2) The tech pace is unrealistically fast. By the time I build a sizable army of units with some new tech, they are already obsolete. The ancient era just passes really quickly. Now, I know about the Marathon game speed setting, but that's not really my point here. My point is that the game is biased towards tech-racing and that often leaves me broke. I'd like to play a game where I can put the tech slider lower and make more cash, while everyone's tech pace is slower.

3) I never have enough gold for upgrading units, or anything significant for that matter. Maybe I'm not building enough cottages? So how many cottages should I build per city? What ratio of cottages to other improvements? Any other cash tips?

Thanks!
 
War earlier and you will need less units.. If you think the tech pace is too fast you could play epic or even marathon(though i find it to get boring...). The game is actually very biased towards waring and the tech pace is just to balance agaisnt that.. Upgrading units is a waste 95% of the time so it is a huge waste of money...
 
Cottages and catapults are the two biggest strategy changes in Civ4.

Aim for cottaging 50% of your grassland tiles.

Always bring catapults along to knock down defenses.
 
Hello.

I'm one of those folks who didn't like Civ 4 at first and went back to Civ 3. Recently, I gave Civ 4 another chance and I got a much better impression of it. Anyway, I have some basic strategy questions:

1) I find war to be extremely difficult in this game. The attacker needs to have a HUGE advantage in order to just dream of considering initiating a war. I have a rather imperialistic warmongering approach and I'd prefer a somewhat shorter build-up time and higher pay off from my wars. I mean, I don't want to wait hundreds of turns and build a huge army just to conquer two lousy backwater cities. Any tips?

2) The tech pace is unrealistically fast. By the time I build a sizable army of units with some new tech, they are already obsolete. The ancient era just passes really quickly. Now, I know about the Marathon game speed setting, but that's not really my point here. My point is that the game is biased towards tech-racing and that often leaves me broke. I'd like to play a game where I can put the tech slider lower and make more cash, while everyone's tech pace is slower.

3) I never have enough gold for upgrading units, or anything significant for that matter. Maybe I'm not building enough cottages? So how many cottages should I build per city? What ratio of cottages to other improvements? Any other cash tips?

Thanks!
  1. Quite simply, this is not true. I've successfully attacked and conquered AI opponents with a relatively small stack. A favourite tactic of mine (and of several other players) is the early Axe rush, where you build 2 cities (the second to claim a source of copper), chop/whip out about a half-dozen Axemen, and kill your nearest neighbour while he only has Archers to defend himself. Even later in the game, I can make do with a mixed stack of about 6-10 City Raiders, a roughly equivalent number of siege weapons, and a counter unit of each variety (anti-mounted, anti-melee) to defend the stack. Check this site's War Academy; a couple of my own articles (links in my sig) may also be helpful.
  2. Well, changing the game speed is definitely one option, as you yourself mention. If you want the AI to tech a little more slowly, try some of the custom game options. I've found that options like "No Tech Trading" or the slightly-less restrictive "No Tech Brokering" slow down the tech pace considerably. Another option that is seemingly unrelated but has a similar effect is "Aggressive AI"--because the AI now invests so much into its military, it has less cash to spend on research. Combine that with one of the aforementioned tech settings and you'll find the tech pace is significantly slower.
  3. Unit upgrades are expensive and often unnecessary. With barracks and the right civics, you can easily produce Level 3 units (2 promotions), so there's no point upgrading units below level 4 unless it's an emergency. Also consider the era: if everyone suddenly discovers Gunpowder, what's the sense in upgrading units with now-obsolete Cover and Shock promotions? Save your gold to upgrade the few units that need/deserve upgrades. Generally these fall into 2 categories: (1) highly-promoted veterans, and (2) units with promotions not available to their successor. This usually means melee units with City Raider III, which fall into both categories when Grenadiers and Riflemen come along.
    Now you also asked about gold. There are many ways to get gold if you need it. Obviously, you can lower the science slider--even all the way down for a few turns. If you run a Specialist Economy, you could even get away with this for most of the game. You can also run merchant specialists. And in the early game, once you discover Currency, you can ask friendly/pleased leaders for gifts, or shake down cautious/annoyed/furious leaders for tribute. You can also sell techs (though not if you turned on No Tech Trading, as I mentioned above). Pillaging is also a good source of gold and can cripple an opponent.
 
Civ is geared towards war, when you play against AI civs. However, combat is geared towards defenders. Bring along catapults/trebuchets to knock down enemy cultural defense and weaken the defenders.

I generally only upgrade my level 6 or higher units, as Sisiutil says. It's better to just delete lower level ones.
 
Hello.

I'm one of those folks who didn't like Civ 4 at first and went back to Civ 3. Recently, I gave Civ 4 another chance and I got a much better impression of it. Anyway, I have some basic strategy questions:

1) I find war to be extremely difficult in this game. The attacker needs to have a HUGE advantage in order to just dream of considering initiating a war. I have a rather imperialistic warmongering approach and I'd prefer a somewhat shorter build-up time and higher pay off from my wars. I mean, I don't want to wait hundreds of turns and build a huge army just to conquer two lousy backwater cities. Any tips?

Hello Brain,

War had me confused in CivIV for quite a while. It wasn't until I discovered the rock-paper-scissors aspect of war in CivIV that I started advancing off Monarch. If I know what my enemy has, and I build the proper unit to counter it, I can end up taking prime cities without losing any units. Although the previous scenario is rare, I've also learned to reduce the number of units I've lost. Siege weapons (Catapults, Trebucts, etc.) will do damage to multiple units even if they die. This is very important because if you send in your siege weapons first, they can soften up your enemies to the point where every single one of your normal units will have a HUGE advantage.

(This is all from memory. If I fowl [sic] something up, please let me know.) Consider this scenario: You want to take a city defended by four longbowmen. These units have a strength of 6 with a 25% bonus to city defense + 25% bonuses to fortification. Unprompted that's 6 * 1.50, or 9 strength!

What should you bring to attack? Some people would say eight unpromoted swordmen would do the job. And they are correct, eight swordsmen WOULD do the job. Lets look at most likely scenario of eight swordsmen attacking the four longbowmen. Swordsmen have 8 attack with +10% city attack. That's 8*1.10 or 8.8 strength, just less than the defender's 9.

8.8 vs 9 is going to be close to 50%, probably just under it. But there will probably be some cultural defenses involved in the city you're attacking (the number under the city.) This number will increase the defenses of the defending longbowmen as well, so chances are the swordsmen will have closer to 25% (or less!) chance to kill the longbowmen.

Your first swordsman attacks. It injures longbowmen #1 to about 50% health, and your swordsman dies.
Your second swordsman attacks. The game automatically chooses the best defender (a full health longbowmen) and the same thing happens as above.
After you lose your first four swordsmen, the longbowmen have about 50% health each (about 3 health + 25% + 25%, or 4.5 + a little more due to cultural defenses) vs your swordsman's full health (8.8 after bonuses.)

The final four attacks will all be over 50% and because I'm taking the most likely scenario here, I'm going to say all four win. You take the city losing four Swordsmen, good job!

Now lets look at the scenario using four catapults and four swordsmen.

Catapults have a strength of 4, vs the longbowmen's 9 + culture, the catapults probably won't survive too well. However their strength lies in their collateral damage. When you attack with your catapult, chances are you'll not only damage the longbowman you're attacking, but you'll also damage the 3 other longbowmen garrisoned in the city.

Your first catapult attacks. 4 vs 9 + culture = probably less than 5% chance of surviving. Once your catapult dies, you damage all 4 of the longbowman!
Your second catapult attacks. 4 vs 7 this time. This will probably be around 12 or 15%, and don't expect to win. Once that one dies, you're really starting to damage the longbowmen!
By the time your 3rd Catapult attacks, your catapults may be close to, or even above a 50% chance of surviving due to the collateral damage. In this scenario, your 3rd catapult may or may not die. I'm going to say it does, because chances are it will die.
However your 4th Catapult should have no problem not dying, and will do tons of damage to the four already injured longbowmen.
By this time the longbowmen will be easily mopped up by your Swordsmen.

Now you've taken the city losing only 3 (or maybe only 2) units instead of 4. Not only that, the remaining catapult(s) now has(/have) experience and can probably can be promoted!

Rock paper scissors.

Axemen > Melee
Pikemen > Mounter
Chairots > Axemen
Swords > Cities
Siege Weapons > Stacks of units (at a loss of the siege)

*wipes brow* Yes, combat IS that complicated. And I didn't even go into why you should not promote your swordsmen with city raider 1. But that's for another day. ;)

2) The tech pace is unrealistically fast. By the time I build a sizable army of units with some new tech, they are already obsolete. The ancient era just passes really quickly. Now, I know about the Marathon game speed setting, but that's not really my point here. My point is that the game is biased towards tech-racing and that often leaves me broke. I'd like to play a game where I can put the tech slider lower and make more cash, while everyone's tech pace is slower.

Marathon. Marathon. Marathon.

I only play Marathon, and I'm not even a warmonger....well okay maybe my troops get bored and decide to pillage things, but that's out of my control! :mischief:

Seriously though, play on Marathon. But more importantly, build your units to the Rock Paper Scissors pattern of CivIV's combat.


3) I never have enough gold for upgrading units, or anything significant for that matter. Maybe I'm not building enough cottages? So how many cottages should I build per city? What ratio of cottages to other improvements? Any other cash tips?

As far as cottages to other improvements, I cannot help you much. I play mostly Specialists economies (Build Pyramids, switch to Representation, work on Farms and set Specialists.) However you should learn where commerce is obtained without cottages.

Rivers = Commerce
Coastal tiles = Commerce
Gold, Silver, & Gems = Commerce when mined
Fur = Commerce when camped
Plantation resources = Commerce when Plantation'd

All of these tiles generate commerce without needing to wait for your cottages to grow into towns. Settling cities next to these tiles, and working these tiles, can permit you to get a large amount of commerce very quickly.

If you try to figure everything out about CivIV right away, it will wreck your brain. :crazyeye: Instead learn one or two things at a time. I won a lot of my first games without doing anything super special. I had no clue what to tech for, and in some games I just teched for whatever had the least amount of turns. :lol:

To give you an idea of how many things there are to learn, I play Immortal and Deity games, and I JUST learned that Caravals can travel on the ocean without Astronomy. I also just learned that you can't found a corporation while running under state property. Also I just learned that you can have the UN and the AP running at the same time. These are all things I just learned in the last week! I also still don't know how to manage a cottage economy very well. :confused: In many aspects of CivIV I'm still a newbie.

CivIV is HUGE. There are literally thousands of things you can do every turn. Learn the game a little at a time. If something is confusing you, drop the difficulty down 1 or 2 levels, and practice using that new strategy until you understand it. Then go back to the level you're comfortable with, and use your newfound skill there.

And good luck!
 
Thanks to all for your replies. Indeed, Civ 4 is a huge game. All these new concepts - unit counters, promotions, specialist economies... I don't know if I'll ever get my head around all of it. :(

In my next game I'll try using more varied units and siege weapons. I admit that I'm not too fond of having to move one square at a time to get to the enemy, but I'll live with it.

About specialist economies, well, I read about it but I also read that it's a more "advanced" strategy and that I should stick with cottages at first. I still consider myself a novice in this game so I didn't try it yet. What do you think?

About cottages: on what tiles do you normally build cottages? I mean, I usually build them on the same tiles I would build farms, which means food plain and grassland. Is that right? What about plains?

One more thing, about chops: should I chop everything down or leave some trees for the extra hammers?
 
About cottages: on what tiles do you normally build cottages? I mean, I usually build them on the same tiles I would build farms, which means food plain and grassland. Is that right? What about plains?

One more thing, about chops: should I chop everything down or leave some trees for the extra hammers?

I'm no expert, but if I'm going with cottages (rarely) I tend to put them, as you said, on flood plains and grasslands (especially riverside) and generally farm plains tiles if possible.

About chops: only chop absolutely everything if you really need to rush out several units and to speed along a key wonder. Forests also give health bonuses (I think it's +.5 :health: for each) so keeping 2-4 of them in the cities workable tiles is sometimes a good idea, especially if you're not on fresh water for the +2 :health: bonus.
 
Thanks to all for your replies. Indeed, Civ 4 is a huge game. All these new concepts - unit counters, promotions, specialist economies... I don't know if I'll ever get my head around all of it. :(

In my next game I'll try using more varied units and siege weapons. I admit that I'm not too fond of having to move one square at a time to get to the enemy, but I'll live with it.
I never played Civ III myself (I'm a I/II vet), but from what I understand, IV contains huge changes from III and it takes veterans of that version a while to get used to what's new. From a gameplay standpoint, one of the things the developers focused on was closing off the exploits, the tried-and-true sure paths to victory--notably, early REX (rapid expansion). So if you stick with it, what I think you'll find is, ultimately, a more challenging, varied, and thereby more enjoyable game experience.
About specialist economies, well, I read about it but I also read that it's a more "advanced" strategy and that I should stick with cottages at first. I still consider myself a novice in this game so I didn't try it yet. What do you think?
I'd agree with this assessment. Cottages are easier and involve less micro-management. Once you get comfortable with the game in general and the CE (especially with non-Financial leaders), read up around here on the SE and give it a whirl.
About cottages: on what tiles do you normally build cottages? I mean, I usually build them on the same tiles I would build farms, which means food plain and grassland. Is that right? What about plains?
As schwartz said, I usually find the best places for cottages are flood plains and riverside grassland. This is because these tiles provide enough food to support the citizen working the cottage (in the case of flood plains, +1 :food: surplus); in addition, a riverside tile already gives you 1 :commerce:, so putting a cottage there gives you 2 :commerce: right off the bat--it's as if the cottage became a hamlet instantly. In the early game, that's a big difference, and as the game goes on, that +1 :commerce: bonus stays with you and, of course, benefits from any science or commerce multipliers you build in the city.

The downside to this is, as you guessed, less food because you're not farming those tiles. And remember that to chain irrigate tiles not adjacent to a water source (which is enabled by Civil Service), you may need to farm some of these riverside tiles rather than putting cottages on them.

Plains are mediocre tiles. I farm them if the city will eventually need the food. Otherwise, if the city has a healthy food surplus, I exploit their 1 :hammers:. To do this, I put watermills on them if they're riverside or workshops if they're not.
One more thing, about chops: should I chop everything down or leave some trees for the extra hammers?
As schwartz mentioned, each forest gives you .5 :health:--though remember this only counts in whole numbers, so you need at least 2, 4, 6, etc. forest tiles within the city's fat cross to get +1, 2, 3 :health: respectively, and so on.

Furthermore, one of the early vanilla patches nerfed chopping pre-Mathematics, so you might want to try to save you're chopping until you obtain that technology, and for something worthwhile, like a wonder.

Forests are especially useful to keep around for a city with many flood plains, since these tiles create health issues, and the forests can balance that out. Forests are mediocre tiles yield-wise, however, until mid-game and Replaceable Parts, when you can put lumbermills in them. A lumbermill with a railroad produces the same number of hammers as a hill with a mine. On flat tiles this is great, but as with everything in Civ IV, there's a tradeoff if you do this on a forested hill. By not mining and working a hill, you forgo the slim chance of discovering a resource there. Frankly, Civ IV is all about balancing out these sorts of choices. That's why it's so much fun! :D
 
Thanks to all. Wow! That's a lot of very detailed replies. :eek: I hope I'm not bothering you with all these really basic questions because I'll probably have more as I play along.

Sisiutil your PDF guides are especially useful. :goodjob: I think I'm going to have a lot of reading to do.
 
Thanks to all. Wow! That's a lot of very detailed replies. :eek: I hope I'm not bothering you with all these really basic questions because I'll probably have more as I play along.

Sisiutil your PDF guides are especially useful. :goodjob: I think I'm going to have a lot of reading to do.

We love talking about this game almost as much as we love playing it. :D
 
Some of us love talking about it more. :p
 
I rarely play civ, just talk about it.

Good advice above. I too found the change over hard. I remember talking to my friend about and complaining that the rock-paper-scirssors thing gave the defender overwhelming advantage, as he could defend with axes when I sent swords or spears and spears when I attacked with horse archers...

Another big difference from civ3, and the thing that re-balances attack-defence, and in fact weights it in favour of the well equipped attacker: a slightly damaged unit fights much less effectively. Whereas in Civ3, an infantry unit on 1 health can kill whole stacks of cavalry, in Civ4, you can rapidly wear down the best defender.

I find the flank promotions very useful, in eras where defenders gain pre-eminance, such as when MGs appear, but before Arty. You can use flank promoted cav (Cowardly Cavalry TM)to wear away the MGs without losing very many. Now that flank can damage siege equipment as well, I rarely promote Cav with anything else.

I did so love my strength 18 cossacks with pinch and combat I though :(
 
Quick reply to Kesshi: Swordsmen have a base strength of 6, not 8. 8 unpromoted swordsmen will fail attacking four unpromoted longbowmen fortified in a city.

Siege weapons are the equalizer. You will need more than you think. You have your wall-destruction and your collateral damage, both of which are key. Sisiutil's articles about building a stack are worth checking out.

War Weariness is also a major factor. Essentially, a fast war is better than a slow one. This means attacking very early in the game or attacking when you have technological or numerical superiority, unless you are willing to take a peace treaty mid-war for a weariness breather.
 
Just a note on specialist economy and civ economies in general: While it's true that a specialist economy is a little more demanding to manage than a cottage economy, I think this point is often overstated. After all what it involves is, make alot of food, build a library, run 2 scientist specialists.. repeat for alot of cities. A cottage economy also has its difficulties like knowing how many cottages you want to work and how much production and growth you want. For any type of economy you just have to learn by experience what is best. So don't be afraid to experiment with it, you will quickly get the hang of it. It's a good idea to not do to much at a time though so go ahead and familiarize yourself with the cottage economy first if you want to.
 
Quick reply to Kesshi: Swordsmen have a base strength of 6, not 8. 8 unpromoted swordsmen will fail attacking four unpromoted longbowmen fortified in a city.

Oops! :blush: Thanks for pointing that out, slobberinbear.

Sheese, that makes siege weapons even more useful then. ;)
 
Just a note on specialist economy and civ economies in general: While it's true that a specialist economy is a little more demanding to manage than a cottage economy, I think this point is often overstated. After all what it involves is, make alot of food, build a library, run 2 scientist specialists.. repeat for alot of cities. A cottage economy also has its difficulties like knowing how many cottages you want to work and how much production and growth you want. For any type of economy you just have to learn by experience what is best. So don't be afraid to experiment with it, you will quickly get the hang of it. It's a good idea to not do to much at a time though so go ahead and familiarize yourself with the cottage economy first if you want to.

That's a good point. I find the CE requires the same level of city screen micromanagement because the city governor rarely assigns a new citizen to a cottage tile. :mad: Yes, even if I have "emphasize commerce" on.

Civ4lerts is great, but I'd like a game interface option to be prompted as soon as a city grows, asking me how I want to assign a new citizen--which tile to work, or which specialist to become.
 
Thanks again for the replies.

I have another question about early wars. Sisiutil, I read your early rush guide, but I have a hard time applying it in practice. The hardest is, again, the tech pace. I really don't get how you can produce a warrior, worker, settler, barracks, and enough axemen for an attack before getting iron. :confused: I tried doing it but ended up making a swordsman rush instead (and "rush" is a pretty strong term here). I tried various combinations of chops, whipping, queue switching, and so forth, but still with the same results.

So if you have time, could you explain how to do this turn-by-turn using an example? That would help a lot.

I played this on tiny maps so I can find neighbors quickly and kill them.

PS: I was finally able to do an axeman rush by setting my research to zero after getting the basic techs and then producing cheap warriors and upgrading them to axemen. That was okay because I was going for a fast kill, but on a larger map where you intend to play a normal game afterwards it doesn't seem to be a very good strategy.
 
Thanks again for the replies.

I have another question about early wars. Sisiutil, I read your early rush guide, but I have a hard time applying it in practice. The hardest is, again, the tech pace. I really don't get how you can produce a warrior, worker, settler, barracks, and enough axemen for an attack before getting iron. :confused: I tried doing it but ended up making a swordsman rush instead (and "rush" is a pretty strong term here). I tried various combinations of chops, whipping, queue switching, and so forth, but still with the same results.

So if you have time, could you explain how to do this turn-by-turn using an example? That would help a lot.

I played this on tiny maps so I can find neighbors quickly and kill them.

PS: I was finally able to do an axeman rush by setting my research to zero after getting the basic techs and then producing cheap warriors and upgrading them to axemen. That was okay because I was going for a fast kill, but on a larger map where you intend to play a normal game afterwards it doesn't seem to be a very good strategy.

Are you playing normal speed? On Epic and especially marathon you can get an entire army ready to go before you finish teching ironworking.
 
Yeah, I'm playing normal speed. Maybe it's because it's a tiny map. Does the game adjust the tech costs with map size?
 
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