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Some observations when playing v3.13 & v3.14

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Babri, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    I had played one game as Rome on v3.13 & playing one game as Mongols on v3.14. Here are couple of my observations.

    • Ranged naval ships are OP against cities especially late game. This is magnified when AI leaves it's city ungarrisoned to attack your invading force. Then you can quickly bring your ships out of no where & bombard it. Then rush with a unit & tada, city captured.
    • Order policy (iron curtain) which gives instant courthouses doesn't work as intended.
    • Civs starting with a ship in start is too much of an advantage. You can explore at twice the speed & protect your fishing boats without any naval military investment.
    • Rome having a naval UU makes little sense. Navy focus suits Carthage more. I would suggest some aqueduct replacement which provides wide bonus such as happiness.
    • Keshiks don't get +1 move from their UA, nor do vanguard units.
    • Keshiks have been kind of heavily nerfed. They get quick study but are statistically weak compared to Arabian Camel archers. There ranged attack should be increase to 22 or 23, while their melee strength could be reduced a bit.
    • Cities now have ridiculous HP. While that is a great change as archers are kind of ineffective against cities & city battles become more strategic. But I think siege units also somewhat ill-perform against a well defend city. On the other hand ranged ships can make short work of cities. That is quite strange. My suggestion is to give siege units different promotions, 3 promotions for bonus against cities and fortified units & maybe 3 cover promotions. This would make siege units more suited for the siege combat.

    And I have a question regarding Mongol UA. When is the forced puppet trigger is supposed to happen? Do I need to have military presence to be able to demand a worker or it will happen even when I have ability do demand gold from them?

    That is for now. I'll post more of my observations later.
     
  2. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Keshiks and Camels I don't think have been properly adjusted and balanced stat-wise because they're role-reversed (ranged) from regular knights. Keshiks should be mostly about ranged hit and run and fast. Camels maybe could be harder to kill melee than Keshiks.

    Agreed on the ranged ship OP. Especially early. I'd also agree Rome needs some other civil engineering effect. They had an important navy but it doesn't really synergize gameplay.
     
  3. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I've modded my game to remove the city attack bonuses from naval bombarding units. It's just too overpowering. I know Thal loves navies, but it's ridiculous. A catapult should be better at taking down a city than a bireme. It's an easy edit to make.

    Go to the file CEA_Promotions_End.sql in the folder Communitas Enhanced Gameplay/Armies/Promotions

    Comment out this code:
    INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions (UnitType, PromotionType)
    SELECT DISTINCT Type, 'PROMOTION_CITY_ATTACK_II'
    FROM Units WHERE Class IN (
    'UNITCLASS_BIREME' ,
    'UNITCLASS_GALLEASS' ,
    'UNITCLASS_PRIVATEER' ,
    'UNITCLASS_IRONCLAD' ,
    'UNITCLASS_BATTLESHIP' ,
    'UNITCLASS_MISSILE_CRUISER'
    );
    by putting /* before it and */ after it. Naval ranged units are now more balanced and sane.
     
  4. stackpointer

    stackpointer King

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    The forced puppet trigger happens anytime after turn 10 (subject to change) when you have the military to demand a worker so you can demand gold from city states without triggering the UA.
     
  5. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    I love navies, too, but I think they would stay relevant ebough even without the unpopular city bonus. Might be worth trying to see what happens? They'd still hit land units VERY hard after all. An alternative would be a general (small) nerf against any land target while leaving the city attack bonus. As I said, they hit land units so hard that I heaviliy use them as city garrison, which is somewhat strange. City attack is a more historic role IMO.
    I agree cities are hard to capture, but I don't see much need to change apart from finetuning. The AI seems to still be capable taking them, there's no stalemate as far as I can tell. But I sure wouldn't make cities stronger anymore.

    On a side note, I'm happy we're abandoning the swordmen -> gatling upgrade path. I haven't tested the new version well enough yet, but the old version just felt wrong. It made me avoid classic infantry instead of having it as backbone of my army.
     
  6. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    The problem is not with the city HP strength itself. The problem is that ships are too strong against cities while siege units don't perform that well against them when a unit of respective age is garrisoned inside a city. I suggest that siege units should get city attack & ranged defence related promotions as suggested in the OP so it is worth to bring an otherwise crappy unit instead of a ranged ship or archer when attacking cities.


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  7. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Your suggestions seem very reasonable. They are what I meant by finetuning. I just wanted to state that the general city toughness is quite well-balanced IMO and we should stick to minor adjustements.

    Short: We agree ;)
     
  8. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    Nice thread for feedback.

    If you think there are bugs in 3.14 please make bug reports in the subforum - it's hard to find out what's bugs and what's just wishes.

    \Skodkim
     
  9. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    No, this is just about balance from my side.
     
  10. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    Fine. Balance is good and if the general oppinion points somewhere we should of course consider a change.

    There were some comments on Keshiks and policies that sounded like bugs though. If you think there are bugs it really help with thorough bug reports.

    \Skodkim
     
  11. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Sorry, I'm an egocentric fool! :eek:

    I forgot that there were some other issues in this thread before I jumped in and talked about conquering cities! Maybe Babri would be so kind to repeat the "buggy" issues in the bugfixing forum?
     
  12. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Ok. I'll post those bugs in the bug forum. I was just mentioning my experiences in the recent game, that included some bugs as well.
     
  13. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I have played several games with a small tweak to the navies and the balance issues are much improved. Easy enough to remove the city attack promotion from ranged ships. They are still very strong units. They take out land units with ease. They are vulnerable to escort ship units (like a Trireme or Frigate). They are still very good against cities, although not overpowering. Land siege units are best against cities, but very vulnerable to being attacked. The ranged naval units can still gain city attack promotions from experience as well.

    Another minor change I play with is lowering the cost of Frigates. They're too expensive. I set them to be the same cost as Galleons (the ranged ship of the same era). They're unlocked with the same technology. They should be similar in cost too. As it was, they were just slightly cheaper than a Destroyer. I also have adjusted the cost of Submarines and lowered it so that they are around 2/3rds the cost of a Destroyer. I haven't tested this yet though, but the idea is that a navy of Submarines would be like the poor man's navy. Submarines shouldn't cost more than Destroyers. They aren't very fast and are easy to kill. They really only do well if supported by other units.
     
  14. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Sounds good, like it. The changes to ranged naval units and frigates sound very reasonable. I can't say much about subs, though, haven't used them much recently.
     
  15. jwerano

    jwerano Wonderstacker

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    The cost of frigates relative to Caravels and Galleons has always bothered me as well.
     
  16. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    To me vanguard unit costs are the big issue. I still don't see why a spearman is cheaper than a warrior when the former is "much" stronger than the latter.

    But: I guess a more lengthy discussion should be in this thread.

    \Skodkim
     
  17. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Skodkim, which version are you using? I haven't d/l the latest but I had thought the vanguard discount was heavily reduced and that spears were at least the same cost as warriors.
     
  18. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    I'm using 3.14. Vanguard costs have been increased but not much and right now spearmen and warriors cost the same (was wrong before): 80 production

    BNW Production costs are scaled by 0,972 for UNITCLASS_WARRIOR while it is scaled by 0,692 for UNITCLASS_SPEARMAN (Armies\CEA__Start.sql)

    Better than in previous versions IMHO but I still don't understand the reason behind the relatively low vanguard costs (I did try searching but the discussions were long and I found no conclusions)

    \Skodkim
     
  19. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Might be about the promotions available to them? Vanguards were never meant to be mainline troops according to Thal. So a warrior could have been expensive for his potential to develop into a more powerful unit? That's what I think, but it's just a guess.
     
  20. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Cavalry units still receiving terrain boosts & fortification. This is kind of broken. On top of extra strength compared to their unmounted counterpart, they also have the ability to fortify which takes away one of the unique elements from infantry ie holding ground

    Winged hussars are ranged. Thus their unique trait of pushing enemies back doesn't work. Anyway it doesn't make much sense for lancers to be ranged units. If dragoons were ranged that could have made sense but not for lancers.

    Resource changes shouldn't obsolete units immediately. For example if I lack oil I should be able to make cavalry. It doesn't make sense that if I don't get oil then I am pretty much screwed if I research combustion (or whatever is the tech that unlocks Landships).

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