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Some proposals for future FT patching

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fairy Tale Mod' started by Highwayhoss, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. Highwayhoss

    Highwayhoss Red Lantern of Civ4 Earth

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    I've been doing some thinking about tweaking the Mod; in particular I had a few ideas in certain areas I wanted to get feedback and suggestions on.

    1. TRAITS: I was thinking instead of having "generic" traits, each leader should have a "Civ specific" trait that all leaders of that Civ have plus a "leader specific trait" that applies to only that leader. The Civ traits would be listed as "The Power of (Whatever)"
    (For example the Prinicipality would have "The Power of Chivalry" while the Crystallin would have "The Power of the Amazon") Do you think this would work and if so what Civ trait would each Civ have and its effects?

    2. RELIGIONS: Instead of having religions, I was thinking of using the religion mechanics to represent alignments; there would be five distinct alignments in my proposal:
    1. Chaotic Evil (Destruction for its own sake; Marana's alignment)
    2. Order Evil (Repressive Tyranny; The Cult of the Silver Dragon for example)
    3. Neutral (elves maybe)
    4. Order Good (Eagle Order for example)
    5. Chaotic Good (maximum freedom)
    (Note that these are merely placeholder names; I am open to better names)
    Basically each alignment would have a "dummy tech" that cannot be researched but is instead listed as a starting tech for certain civs. Unlike religions, these alignments would not have buildings directly associated with them; instead if a particular alignment is the "state religion", the Civ would be able to build a Shrine-type world wonder with a virtual "resource" of a particular subgroup of that Alignment. For example, the Principality (with the Order Good alignment)could build "Eagle Order HQ" as a World Wonder which would have the resource of "Eagle Order" available; this "resource" would in turn enable the construction of Buildings related to the Eagle Order which require that "resource". ( I got the idea from Hephastion which he mentioned in his Hephmod thread.)Note that in this system, you would not get benefits simply from having the alignment in your kingdom; you have to build a related World Wonder to fully take advantage of it. I would modify the Religion Civics accordingly to fit the new system. In addition, I would incorporate both Orion's Inquisition Modcomp (Modified to have a single Generic Inquisitor and Holy Office) plus The_J's Real Favorite Religions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14662) Modcomp so that when a particular Alignment is "discovered" all CIvs with that alignment as a favorite would get it immediately.
    Basic temples would no longer require an alignment; instead they would be the FT counterpart to the Monument replacing the Watchtower (I would still have the Watchtower available as a predecessor to the Castle). The generic Temple can be upgraded to a specific religion/cult/ideology temple if you have a particular "resource".

    Whew! OK any thoughts or feedback on this?
     
  2. Le Sage

    Le Sage Chieftain

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    I like it. Especially the traits. As it is now, many leaders have ended up with the same traits, but giving them a civ-specific one in combination with the usual ones, would indeed make the setups unique. The Principality can have the "Power of Knighthood", giving it special promotions when creating mounted units, for an example. The "Power of the Amazon" can give promotions for melee units, and so on. Feel free to experiment and you can start off with a few nations to show what you're up to and post it, so we can try it out.

    Making the national traits be "The Power of..." would also distinguish them from other traits.

    It's a really great idea though. I think I will implement it already in my expansion. I only have three leaders in there yet, but it gives me incentive to create more Elven Queens for it. :D

    I like your ideas on religion as well and it may actually prove to make religion useful and ideed divide the world into religious camps. Religion needs a major overhaul.

    I was thinking about giving each religion a unique unit to build too (I did it with one of the religions, but you hardly see their UU in the game). Maybe use SaibotLieh's new Atlantica units for religious Holy Units and make them mid- or late-game.

    As always, feel free to start experimenting and trying things out on us! Our experimenting has turned out really great so far, I think :) as you are considering the traits and the religions, I can post an idea thread about espionage and how to make that more useful. Maybe all our hundreds of thousands of fans can come up with some ideas to consider in that department.
     
  3. ono-neko

    ono-neko Chieftain

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    I like these ideas!

    1. This will make each civ become more distinctive/unique besides simply having different units. It's probably not easy to not make one civ becoming overpower than the others (but if every civs are overpower, then no one is having the advantage :p). Maybe make the list of civs, and what traits will be given to each?

    2. This will solve the issue that I sometimes have in the game. That is sometimes one or two of the civs will own almost all of the religions. In the past I suggested Limited Religion mod comp to Le Sage, though I am not sure if he ever decides to use it or not. But with Highwayhoss's proposal, this will spread the religion more across the realm, so perhaps Limited Religion mod comp is not needed anymore.
     
  4. Le Sage

    Le Sage Chieftain

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    I actually like some civs being slightly overpowered. It's a neat way of adjusting the difficulty level too. Try winning the game as the Dead or the Angvina. Or - God forbid - the drunken Dal. Sometimes I like to start a game and just play the Dead and play as a small nation just trying to survive. The Dead can actually get some good times early in the game, but later on I always find myself at the end of the points list.

    When the AI plays them, it's no matter whether some nations are left behind, while some conquer. I think it creates some interesting national tendencies and in all games when I get "The Eagle Order HQ has been founded in a far-away land" I sigh. because I know that one of my enemies in that game will be one of the really efficient and powerful ones. Some nations are really dangerous, while some will always be of lesser importance in most games.

    Your point 2 is very fair. Let's prioritize giving religion a good overhaul!
     
  5. Highwayhoss

    Highwayhoss Red Lantern of Civ4 Earth

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    After doing some thinking on this I decided to change my ideas into a blueprint for HEFT 10.5:

    TRAITS: Instead of all these generic traits, use the trait template to create distinctive individual profiles for each leader (one trait each); this way each leader can truly come across as a distinctive individual instead of a cookie cutter person....yes this would take more effort but the results would be worth it...each leader would have a truly distinctive way of playing. I would get rid of all the Python trait effects plus construction bonuses for buildings and units (which struck me as inherently unbalancing anyway); however happiness and health bonuses from buildings would still be used.

    RELIGION: Use the alignment system I mentioned before for Religion Mechanics, but simplify; each Alignment would have a UB (which would create missionaries to spread the alignment's influence....they could also act as spies.) Each building would also have distinctive effects depending on alignment. Each alignment would also have distinctive UUs (one per era I am thinking).

    Basic Temples would now act as FT's equivalent to Monuments; they would be a good way to get a city to spread boundaries early. I am thinking that these could be upgraded to an alignment's UB (which would make it act as both a temple and a monastery). Each Civ could also build Cathedrals for extra bonuses in certain cities (one per 3 temples max as basic).

    I would get rid of the neutral alignment; instead have four alignments as a base:
    1. Chaotic Evil (Marana)
    2. Lawful Evil (The Silver Dragon Cult for example)
    3. Lawful Good (The Eagle order for example)
    4. Chaotic Good
    However I am open to three additional alignments. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    Religion Civics would be changed; they would now reflect commitment to an alignment and tolerance for other alignments.

    Also have the idea of each alignment having a number of Shrines which would be treated as World Wonders. Unlike BtS, these shrines are not limited only to the city where the alignment is founded, only by the city having the appropriate alignment. This can be seen as Civs competing for a particular god's favor. The Eagle Order HQ would be a good example of such a shrine. (some shrines could be UBs for certain Civs.)

    As for Watchtowers, they would be changed into an early defensive structure supplementing walls; they would give a city both defense bonuses and espionage bonuses....they could also be upgraded to castles.

    OTHER THINGS I AM LOOKING TO ADD: I am looking at OrionVeteran's Navy Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15501) as a source to add new ships to FT (IMHO FT needs more Navy stuff) This would add a new dimension to FT combat.

    Whew! Anyway feedback welcome.
     
  6. Le Sage

    Le Sage Chieftain

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    I really liked the idea of national traits combined with a personal trait for each leader. Are you discarding the national trait idea?

    I like the four alignments for religions. I don't think they have to be more either. The more, the more confusing as well, so that setup seems really good to me.

    Yeah. More navy is welcome. And what's up with the Pirates? They are absolutely crappy. I did a testgame of my Expansion just now and got blockaded by one single Pirate. I sent my own Pirates against him, but he defeated three of them in a row. I should have made a concentrated attack, but the conclusion is that Pirates are really crappy and useless. I can't seem to find the problem with them either...

    More later. Have to go watch telly with my little lady.
     
  7. Highwayhoss

    Highwayhoss Red Lantern of Civ4 Earth

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    Not discarding it so much as merging it....basically remove the redundancy of having two traits....now leaders of the same civ would more than likely have similarities I just wanted to make things simpler; also it can show how civs can change over time.

    Yeah...basically they would function similar to Final Frontier's Values....you can build Advocates to spread your alignment and maybe have a UB for each that give bonuses that relate to that alignment.

    Some ideas/names for Alignment/Values:
    1. Anarchy (Chaotic Evil)-Emphazises war and destruction for its own sake.
    2. Tyranny (Lawful Evil)- Emphasizes conquest and Control over others.
    3. Synergy (Netrual)- Emphasizes balance of forces.
    4. Chivalry (Lawful Good)- Emphasizes Rule of law over rule of man.
    5. Liberty (Chaotic Good) Emphasizes maximum freedom for all.

    OrionVeteran has Piracy in his Navy mod; I will more than likely incorporate that in the Naval expansion (possible name: Tales from the Deep :D ).

    Also keeping an eye on his Army mod.....can be a good way to counter heroes....
     
  8. Le Sage

    Le Sage Chieftain

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    I always liked the Values in Final Frontier and Peacekeeper wars. I welcome your ideas in that area, since the Religions aren't really up to scratch as it looks now. For my expansion I had to place the Eagle Order and Marana Cult, although they really don't fit into the new continent. More generic values like the ones you have planned, would be great for such expansions too.

    Good. We have a lot going now. I'll be working on the Expansion, while you'll be doing the Traits, Religions and Naval matters. It will be like in the olden days! ;)
     

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