Some questions about war strategy (IMM)

[elitetroops]

I'm playing my firt immortal game (Willy, standard size pangaea, normal speed, no huts/random events) and have now got to the point where I have libbed steel and am about to start stomping my neighbours. All the games I played on MON and EMP where more snaky kind of continents or Inland sea, where I usually only attacked in one direction at a time and didn't need to fear anyone coming in behind my troops. The geographical situation here is a bit different from what I'm used to and I'm not quite sure how the AI will react when I go to war and how I should possibly split my stack.

I have Boudica to my west and Joao southwest. My intention was to take Joao first and then leave my best friend Boudi for later. However, Boudi got there first and has now vassaled Joao, which means I have to fight them both. Boudi had a huge stack of 40+ units (catas, knights and random melee) that my scout has been tracking and that stack is now warring against Egypt in the west, which is good, because it is as far away from me as possible. Joao is also of course at war against Egypt and I'm hoping he also sent his army there, though I failed on intel and don't know exactly how much army he has. Boudi has only 3 or 4 units defending all the closest cities and if her main army isn't coming back I should be able to reach her capital very quickly.

My goal is to cap Boudica as quickly as possible. Her cultural pressure just stole corn from the Hague and I need that tile back for whipping cannons asap. I also want coimbra (because it has some wonders and is also aggressively stealing my tiles through cultural pressure) and Lisbon (which has mids and other goodies) from Joao. Guimaraes is atm revolting, so it would probably be a good idea to take that one quickly also.

The questions are:

• Will Boudi send her stack back if I'm getting close to her capital, or just happily continue to war agains Egypt?
• Is it wise to split my stack and go to war in two directions (towards Lisbon and Bibracte) in this situation?

My defenses at home are really weak and if someone sneaks in behind my stack I will lose some of my core cities.

Overall I think I'm in a very good position here. Beelining rifles at the moment and I'm hoping that will be enough to conquer the rest of the world.

Screenshots below and save attached.

Joao's empire:

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Boudi's empire:

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My empire:

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I cued up some longbowmen when I realized I probably don't have enough units to clean up after a siege attack in case I'm facing a big stack. Also need something to stay behind in the cities I take.

My current units:

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Tech situation:

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Oooh, have to trade myself some banking!

 

[kossin]

Given that the main SoD is far, splitting your smallish army is ok for the first strike.

Once the AI starts pulling more troops from neighboring cities, you might gain faster from reuniting it in 1 SoD.

Bouddi's own SoD will complete it's assigned task first, then move against you. Most likely.

 

[Gumbolt]

So Boudica is at war with the Egptians and has JoaII as a vassel.

If she is at war with Egptians her stack should be elsewhere but may return. Of course her vassel is by no means dead either. JoaII still has 7-8 cities.

So you want to take JoaII first? Whatever happens when you declare on JoaII you delcare on the Celts too. The danger here is if the Celts also Vassel the Egptians you have a 3rd Ai to fight. My aim would be to weaken the Celts first before they get too strong. JoaII cities are further away. Coimbre is a useful close city to take but I prefer to catch Boud unaware.

Okay you have a strong cannon unit to use. Probably enough units to start the war. The main danger you face is Boud stack appearing and attacking your stack. She is a warmonger and will normally spam units. Although she is currently at war with the Egptians.

Oh you won't cap Boudica while she has a vassel. You would need to kill the vassel first or reduce Boudica size so the Vassel declares itself free. You will need to take 4-5+ of her cities and have reduced her stack before she will even consider vasselling.

This all assume JoaII has no stack.

I would keep whipping/ pumping out units dueing the war.

The issue you may face later is you start to lag behind the AI techwise. Your science of 250 a turn for a financial leader at break even seems a bit low. You could also focus a lot of your city builds. Maybe keep whipping units. Have you scouted her stack? You have 1-2 turns to find it.

 

[elitetroops]

Bouddi's own SoD will complete it's assigned task first, then move against you. Most likely.

So there is no big risk that Boudica's main army will appear until I hear the peace horn that indicates the end of her war against Egypt?

Of course her vassel is by no means dead either. JoaII still has 7-8 cities.

He has 4 that I know of, 3 on the main land and one on a small island. The remaining dark green area is Ottoman territory. That did indeed confuse me at first also when they are sharing borders.

So you want to take JoaII first? Whatever happens when you declare on JoaII you delcare on the Celts too. The danger here is if the Celts also Vassel the Egptians you have a 3rd Ai to fight.

Good point! I really don't want to face three AI's. Is Ramesses less likely to capitulate if Boudica loses a few cities?

Oh you won't cap Boudica while she has a vassel. You would need to kill the vassel first or reduce Boudica size so the Vassel declares itself free. You will need to take 4-5+ of her cities and have reduced her stack before she will even consider vasselling.

I'm not sure how the vassal system works, but is there a chance that Joao breaks free from Boudica if she can't defend him and I take Coimbra and Lisbon?

The issue you may face later is you start to lag behind the AI techwise. Your science of 250 a turn for a financial leader at break even seems a bit low. You could also focus a lot of your city builds. Maybe keep whipping units. Have you scouted her stack? You have 1-2 turns to find it.

I guess you are right. I've been financing research with GM's and failgold to get this tech lead and have mostly focused commerce in my cap, which at the moment produces 60% of my research at break even. I'm trying to get up Oxford there asap. Hence building the universities.

I saw her stack two turns ago when it entered Egyptian territory, then I sent my scout back to make him a Great Medic with my first GG.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Forget Oxford, use your cannons to take out Boudi and Joao, tech up to rifles and take another AI or two. Crawl to infantry and finish the game.

All those universities should have been cannons, don't go for Oxford unless gunning for a spaceship. Opportunity cost is too high.

 

[elitetroops]

Forget Oxford, use your cannons to take out Boudi and Joao, tech up to rifles and take another AI or two. Crawl to infantry and finish the game.

All those universities should have been cannons, don't go for Oxford unless gunning for a spaceship. Opportunity cost is too high.

I see. Good point. With the current tech lead I can probably cut my way through a few AI's and still be around equal techwise when we get to infantry (and still way ahead of Monty at that point). Mehmed is the most advanced of the bunch, but I should be able to take care of him with cannons/rifles before he has any decent units to defend himself with. I'll put the universities on hold and get myself more cannons!

This has always been my problem. It's hard to do only one thing at a time as I always want to keep improving infra even when I should be just whipping myself an army. I guess that is a habit I should have left behind when leaving the lower difficulty levels.

 

[kossin]

So there is no big risk that Boudica's main army will appear until I hear the peace horn that indicates the end of her war against Egypt?

Her assigned task is most likely 'capture city X'... once that city falls, the SoD might or might not heal and then move to the next objective in terms of priority... likely you.

 

[elitetroops]

Her assigned task is most likely 'capture city X'... once that city falls, the SoD might or might not heal and then move to the next objective in terms of priority... likely you.

Thank you, this is just what I wanted to know. How the AI moves their army. I should probably send a couple of spies then to the west to find out when she is heading back.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yep the entire empire of yours should be war mode. There is no chance that JoaII will cap if you reduce him to 2 cities as he will stay with Celts. Let JoaII simmer. You could use a spy to scout out Celtic stack.

Splitting stack initially to attack celts is fine but merge up quickly. You will need lots of cannons and mace as I doubt this war will be overly easy.

 

[elitetroops]

There is no chance that JoaII will cap if you reduce him to 2 cities as he will stay with Celts.

Okay, thanks. This article: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/vassals.php says that a vassal may choose to break the vassal agreement if they lose half their territory and was hoping that Joao might do so here. But I'll take your word for it that he won't.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay, thanks. This article: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/vassals.php says that a vassal may choose to break the vassal agreement if they lose half their territory and was hoping that Joao might do so here. But I'll take your word for it that he won't.

Even so the Celts are the main threat. If joaII is only 4 cities let him simmer. If the Celts have a big stack you want to reduce his city threat quickly. Attacking JoaII just gives the Celts more time to build units and get it's stack to your front line.

I don't see how attacking the crippled Ai helps? JoaII may well break free if you reduce the Celtic cities anyway. The 50% rule works both ways.

Have you considered joining the SGOTM 17 game? Phoenix Rising could use another player.

 

[elitetroops]

Even so the Celts are the main threat. If joaII is only 4 cities let him simmer. If the Celts have a big stack you want to reduce his city threat quickly. Attacking JoaII just gives the Celts more time to build units and get it's stack to your front line.

I don't see how attacking the crippled Ai helps? JoaII may well break free if you reduce the Celtic cities anyway. The 50% rule works both ways.

Have you considered joining the SGOTM 17 game? Phoenix Rising could use another player.

Yeah, ok. I was thinking of getting rid of Joao mostly to get rid of the threat of him walking in on my core cities while my army is deep in Celtic territory. But getting Coimbra and having some defense there should probably keep him in check.

I've been looking at the SGOTM thread several times and considered joining. But I have a real killer schedule over the next month and wouldn't really have time to play or hang around here at all... So why am I here writing??? Aargh, back to work now.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah, ok. I was thinking of getting rid of Joao mostly to get rid of the threat of him walking in on my core cities while my army is deep in Celtic territory. But getting Coimbra and having some defense there should probably keep him in check.

I've been looking at the SGOTM thread several times and considered joining. But I have a real killer schedule over the next month and wouldn't really have time to play or hang around here at all... So why am I here writing??? Aargh, back to work now.

We all ask that question. lol

Coimbre should be fine but I might of skipped it and done a 2 prong attack on the celtic cities. You could attack one of each city I guess.

 

[cseanny]

Contrary to what everyone else is saying.......DO NOT split up your stack. Boudica is a unit spammer and she'll probably move her stack back fairly quick. Trade Boudi for 200 gold/map/banking for paper/compass.

Then immediately have your Capital start making a bank (not cannon) and chop the lone forest to the NW. Additionally, stop making Univer's like others have said and que units. Use your workers to chop forest first, then improve farms for future whipping.

I would in fact attack the closet JAO city first and then just work your way West and then NW for Boudi. It would probably be wise to leave 4-5 defenders in your closest western border city (Boudi direction).

You're in dire need of anti horse units so dedicate 1-2 cities and make 6 pike. Also, I would not beeline towards Rifling. I'd opt to pick up Military Science while you throw down HE in the farthest East-south city. Then just spam non stop 2turn cannons (Military Academy) there and grenadiers elswhwere.

I've played from your save till a little after 1500 AD and have 16 cities, 3 Military Academies, and one super Medic. From here the game goes Rifles/Cannon and then Infantry/cannon and game over.

 

[Mantic0re]

In similar situations at lower levels I've had luck picking a city, taking it, then emptying it to be refilled by the AI SoD. (Recombine and) Move your stack (bring enough siege) opposite the side her SOD approaches from so she'll stop where you want and you can retake her.


Hard part is keeping an eye on here SoD sometimes (spies getting discovered, scouting units getting bullied) and timing when to empty her city so it gets occupied by the main stack vs her scraps pulled in from other cities.


Once you take her stack she'll cap quickly.

Edit: if she still has a vassal she won't obviously cap, but a broken opponent can be swept by the scourge of multiple small effective stacks.

 

[elitetroops]

Thanks for the tips cseanny! Grenades is an interesting idea. I have totally neglected those on the lower levels where you get such a long window of stomportunity with rifles, but I could probably consider them here. I hope to get to play this battle out this evening, will try some of your tactics then.

Mantic0re, yes that is a good strategy indeed. I've done it on lower levels as well. If I can manage to track her stack and see an opportunity for this move, I certainly will do so. It's hilarious how a stack of siege can easily decimate a huge stack of even technologically superior units as long as you are on the offensive.

 

[Gumbolt]

Remember the celts have no direct answer to your canons. If she has a stack which she should as she is at war then this is only a risk if it is large in size. A 20-30+ stack with pults/trebs could damage your stack.

There is a risk to this war. If the celts do take a city of the Egptians my guess is they would split the stack anyway leaving 5-6 units behind. This makes splitting your stack less riskier. You would have 15 units in each stack and could probably make one stack closer to the celts stronger to hedge your bets.

 

[elitetroops]

Based on the comments yesterday I had planned to send a smallish stack to Coimbra and have my main force taking Verlamion first (or whatever the exact name of that city is, can't see from screenshot because of elephant...). The stack in Coimbra would stay there fencing of any Portuguese retaliation until I get decent defenses there, then take either Camulodunum or Guimaraes. The main army would advance through Vienne to Bibracte and hopefully wipe out Boudica's SoD somewhere along the way.

I just realized I perhaps should leave my scout in the west. It can stay out of reach of Boudica's stack in Egyptian territory and use Egyptian roads every turn to see if Boudi's stack is still there and how big it is. When it has left I should be able to calculate how long it takes for it to meet my stack and where I can expect to face it. I assume her army wouldn't stop for coffee along the way but move the fastest path towards the city she wants to reconquer.

 

[Gumbolt]

It would probably only stop to heal units. This assumes her stack doesn't bombard any city before attacking it. Getting a scout to the Egptian land is a good idea. Waiting 1-2 turns before you declare is not a bad thing. 2-3 more units and 2 stacks ready. The follow up units can defend against joaII. Don't hold back any cannons.

More importantly get playing!!!

 

[elitetroops]

Finally I found time to fight this war. I waited a couple of turns to get more cannons, then I declared in 1150 AD. Before that I had gifted Paper to Mehmed to get him to cautious. And once I had declared:

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Mehmed is really weak, he has no military to speak of. But this did slow down Boudica's army that now was trapped behind enemy lands:

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My scout was watching her stack and once she disappeared into the fog of her own lands I started calculating where and when I would have to face the stack. But Boudica had other plans:

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I was laughing so hard when I saw that. I had already taken Vienne and could now run straight for her cap without any fear of facing her SoD!
Boudi took Samsun and stayed there to heal and at one point she sent half of her stack out to be turned into minced meat by my cannons. The other half of the stack I never needed to face. Once I had her down to 4 cities (including the two she had just taken from Mehmed and Ramesses) Joao broke free and she capitulated in 1300 AD. I then headed for Joao and took both Oporto and Lisbon on the same turn and he capitulated as well. I gifted Oporto back to him and also gave Gergovia back to Boudi, because I feel I have no need for them.

Now I'll just heal up and then take out Mehmed. After him I think I will have to face Saladin, who is starting to run away in tech. Ramesses and Monty should be easy chewing for dessert once I've handled the Arabians.

I think I now need a major revolution. Traded economics from Joao, got Nationhood from Boudi in the vassal deal and I also now have the mids. I'm thinking Police State and Free Market. Should I also consider Nationhood? I already have almost twice as many soldiers as anyone else according to the demographics screen (Current offensive army 30 grens and 24 cannons + some pikes and maces waiting to be upgraded) and only just traded for drama so have made no progress on getting up GT.

Available civic options:

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