Some suggestions to improve Independent People interactions

[pokiehl]

I broadly like the IP system and how they’re barbarians and city-states rolled into one. But there are two things that bother me:

1. Suzerainty is final and incontestable
2. You lose interactive options like raiding once you become suzerain of an IP

So my suggestions are:

1. I think IPs would feel more fun and dynamic if suzerainty required continuous effort and investment like in Civ 5 and Civ 6. It’s no fun knowing that if someone else grabs the IP, that’s it, you can’t do anything about it except conquer it. I’m not saying Influence necessarily needs to decay like in Civ 5, but at least let other players invest Influence to steal them away.

2. I also think we should maintain the “targeted raid” option once we become suzerain. I really like using that option (in general, indirect warfare via Influence needs to be expanded in even more!). Doesn’t make sense to me that we lose that capability as suzerain.

 

[Krikkit1]

An Idea I had for doing it in a 4th age... but should still apply

When you become Suzerein,
1. anyone who has invested influence stops increasing their relationship if they are friendly already (including you)
2. the "Threshold" for becoming suzerein increases
3. The "when you get a Suzerein" abilities ie Free Tech, etc. only apply the first time you become a Suzerein

So once someone becomes Suzerein then there is a chance to reassess and decide if they want to put more influence in



The "Targeted raid" and attacking someone's CS without declaring war on them would be key to ideas for a 4th Age (ie Civs=Nuclear powers don't fight other Civs=Nuclear powers...Civs=Nuclear powers fight CSs.. that are supported by Civs... and CSs fight CSs...
Ideally in a 4th age you could become Suzerein of a CS through War with it as well.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I was a bit surprised that city states disappear if their suzerain is eliminated, they should go back to being independent powers.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

1. I think IPs would feel more fun and dynamic if suzerainty required continuous effort and investment like in Civ 5 and Civ 6. It’s no fun knowing that if someone else grabs the IP, that’s it, you can’t do anything about it except conquer it. I’m not saying Influence necessarily needs to decay like in Civ 5, but at least let other players invest Influence to steal them away.

Should there be a ‘maintenance cost’ of a suzerain? Should it be based on how much you use the bonus?

Should you have to initiate the investment, or should the IP ask you for favor? It would be interesting if it asked its suzerain first for favor and if rebuffed asked someone else, and it would open the door to being influenced away.

 

[Krikkit1]

Should there be a ‘maintenance cost’ of a suzerain? Should it be based on how much you use the bonus?

Should you have to initiate the investment, or should the IP ask you for favor? It would be interesting if it asked its suzerain first for favor and if rebuffed asked someone else, and it would open the door to being influenced away.

I think instead there should just be a "steal possibillity" if you get a Suzerein, someone else can invest some more influence and take it from you if you don't invest enough to stop them.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Influence is already the hardest 'currency' in the game to get, especially in the earlier Ages when IPs are (relatively) thick on the map.

IF we are going to add another Influence sink in contesting IP Suzerainity among, potentially, 4 - 5 players (human and AI, home continent, standard map), then the amount of Influence potentially available/obtainable also has to go up, or this is likely to overwhelm all orther diplomatic options.

I'm afraid such a mechanic runs the risk of being like the current interminable Exploration Age Whack-a-Missionary Convert/Reconvert Cities mechanic, which is one of the most annoying aspects of that Age. Now we get to do the same thing throwing Influence at IPs to suze/unsuze/resuze them? No thanks: I can have more fun beating my head against my keyboard until I pass out.

IF everybody wants to 'contest' IP Suzerainty, let's do it with something besides Influence: bribe them with Gold, offer to build structures in them (also with Gold, like with your own Towns) Upgrade their Units (Gold again) - all of which supportive actiuons could provide Bonuses to keeping your 'influence' over them.

On the other side of the IP fence, I'd like to see the following:

Unique IP Units. They are already divided into Military, Economic, etc types, why not have the Military IPs allow you to buy some 'different' Units from them instead of more of the same Scouts, Slingers and Spearmen?

Among the most common IP/barbarian/pastoral peoples' Units hired by Civs IRL were:
Horse Archers - fast ranged units
Lancers/Cataphractoi - like horse archers, largely available only from Pastoral IPs unless you wrestle Persia or Byzantium
Skirmishers - Long-visioned Scouts with combat factors
Slingers/Archers - lead-pellet-firing Rhodian and Baleric slingers were notorious, Cretan composite bowmen, later Welsh longbowmen all sought-after mercenary troops
Fast Pikemen - Swiss or later the Landsknechts of Exploration Age
Ronin - mercenary Exploration Age swordsmen
'Hessians' - actually the classic German city-state mercenary gunpowder infantry
'Privateers' - Pirates On Your Side to really, really mess with your opponents' trade routes and Treasure Fleets.

Other thoughts on 'specialized ' IP settlements:

On the Economic side, why shouldn't appropriate gold-grubbing IPs start Trade Routes with your settlements automatically when you suze them? That would/could give you some serious and continuous economic reasons to spend the Influence on them

Cultural IPs could contribute Production to the building of Wonders in nearby towns of yours - but limited, only one town at a time, and only a percentage of what the IP generates.

 

[Melkus]

I had my first influence race in my recent game (already had two as Greece, but wanted to see if it's possible to catch up) - the AI got really stubborn and raised twice. So that was alright.

But I'd like to see a few more twists and surprises for the initial race - but preferably without adding complex math:

Camp events that shift suzerainty races by giving simple point boosts. Or adding a bunch of relationship points if a raid is successful.

Attacking an IP unit? - automatic point deduction (higher deduction if the attack happens close to the IP or even on it). Should not prevent you from suzeraining, but slow you down a bit.

A return of the ability to guarantee or even fight for their independence for a small influence boost. Basically - warn your neighbors to back off (maybe only if hostilities took place).

Smear your neighbor for a juicy sympathy deduction with one or all IPs, ruining his investment.

Let us spend a merchant for a better relationship (call it a trade route or something else). Missionaries might do something as well. Converting a village with one guy at least makes some sense (easily converting a full-blown capital of a major civilization does not).

Also, if I suzerained someone in the last age, at least give me either a friendliness bonus or lower influence cost when they return in the next.

 

[Krikkit1]

Influence is already the hardest 'currency' in the game to get, especially in the earlier Ages when IPs are (relatively) thick on the map.

IF we are going to add another Influence sink in contesting IP Suzerainity among, potentially, 4 - 5 players (human and AI, home continent, standard map), then the amount of Influence potentially available/obtainable also has to go up, or this is likely to overwhelm all orther diplomatic options.

I'm afraid such a mechanic runs the risk of being like the current interminable Exploration Age Whack-a-Missionary Convert/Reconvert Cities mechanic, which is one of the most annoying aspects of that Age. Now we get to do the same thing throwing Influence at IPs to suze/unsuze/resuze them? No thanks: I can have more fun beating my head against my keyboard until I pass out.

IF everybody wants to 'contest' IP Suzerainty, let's do it with something besides Influence: bribe them with Gold, offer to build structures in them (also with Gold, like with your own Towns) Upgrade their Units (Gold again) - all of which supportive actiuons could provide Bonuses to keeping your 'influence' over them.

On the other side of the IP fence, I'd like to see the following:

Unique IP Units. They are already divided into Military, Economic, etc types, why not have the Military IPs allow you to buy some 'different' Units from them instead of more of the same Scouts, Slingers and Spearmen?

Among the most common IP/barbarian/pastoral peoples' Units hired by Civs IRL were:
Horse Archers - fast ranged units
Lancers/Cataphractoi - like horse archers, largely available only from Pastoral IPs unless you wrestle Persia or Byzantium
Skirmishers - Long-visioned Scouts with combat factors
Slingers/Archers - lead-pellet-firing Rhodian and Baleric slingers were notorious, Cretan composite bowmen, later Welsh longbowmen all sought-after mercenary troops
Fast Pikemen - Swiss or later the Landsknechts of Exploration Age
Ronin - mercenary Exploration Age swordsmen
'Hessians' - actually the classic German city-state mercenary gunpowder infantry
'Privateers' - Pirates On Your Side to really, really mess with your opponents' trade routes and Treasure Fleets.

Other thoughts on 'specialized ' IP settlements:

On the Economic side, why shouldn't appropriate gold-grubbing IPs start Trade Routes with your settlements automatically when you suze them? That would/could give you some serious and continuous economic reasons to spend the Influence on them

Cultural IPs could contribute Production to the building of Wonders in nearby towns of yours - but limited, only one town at a time, and only a percentage of what the IP generates.

My initial thoughts were for IP competition to be a primary factor in a 4th Age (with additional sources of Influence and additional ways to contest/utilize IPs... Proxy Wars/Ideological pressure/Corporations/etc.... and features so that the Settlement limit goes Down and becomes more punishing... so that you don't want settlements... you want Suzereinity of CSs)

I agree it might be too much in other ages.
Hopefully, the Age transition keeping the Suzereined CS but "Resetting" them can provide some of the necessary tension.... but adding better Proxy War mechanisms like Incite Raid (and keeping them around when the Suzerein is eliminated) would be a good use of it otherwise.

Also they should be able to be liberated (at Least if you were their Suzerein before)

 

[evonannoredars]

The main issue I have with city states at the moment is no ability to bring them back if they get conquered.
I'm not sure about the idea of being able to steal them with influence, that could be annoying to constantly maintain, although a way to conquer IPs but retain their independent status except force them to make you their suzerain instead could be interesting imo.
Definitely agree with keeping the incite raid option tho, at the moment there's not much more interaction with them you're likely to do besides levying units after you've suzerained them.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Instead of clearing an Independent Power, it should be possible to subjugate them.
This would require killing some of their units in order to occupy their camp.
Once on the camp tile, the could be brought under your suzerainty for a fraction of the Influence cost.
This could be an effective way to catch up when the AI has already sunk significant Influence into befriending an IP.
To counter the same being done to your IPs, you could buy units for the IP with Gold

 

[Auraiz]

I think the only thing that makes sense to me is to be able to militarily conquer another CS and have the option to "liberate" it into being your suz CS. Anything else is going to turn into whackamole influence game I want to avoid. I like how it works now except for CS being forever locked in.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

I would like some kind of benefit to be gained a la 6. So you don't need to be Suze, but can sink like 1/4 the cost of Befriending into a small bonus per turn. Plus perhaps get limited visibility of its borders.

 

[Krikkit1]

I would like some kind of benefit to be gained a la 6. So you don't need to be Suze, but can sink like 1/4 the cost of Befriending into a small bonus per turn. Plus perhaps get limited visibility of its borders.

This would be big, if Suzereins are only one all or nothing, that means there is less interaction... On the other hand, if multiple civs could befriend CS (even or maybe only after they are Suzereined) for benefits like access to trade routes to them, or some smaller benefit (say 1 X per age on your capital... same for all of a particular type, etc.).. let multiple different civs incite raids, (never against the Suzerein)